Dealing with Anti-Authority and Anger

[BuickCFI]

I have a student who has anti-authority and anger issues something fierce. With what happened yesterday we were coming in on the last approach, everything else had been going well up until he quit listening to me on how to fly the procedure, so i let it go. i didnt' say a single word the rest of the way in, and we ended up getting yelled at by his rapcon buddies because he is a controller as well. Not that i think he listens to me anyway because he told me before the first flight he doesnt' care how the procedures should be flown, he is going to fly it his own way anyway. I just dont' have enough experience to deal with this kid and what exactly i should do to counteract it, but it is pissing me off.

if it is bumpy out (hello, welcome to summer!) he gets pissed of in the airplane and actually will start swearing because we are getting tossed around +/- 60ft.

his overall attitude is, i am a big bad controller and i know more about IFR that you, so i am going to do things my way even if it is wrong. His reasoning for this is he has been playing flight sim for years doing these things in a 747 and because he is a controller he knows more about the system than and flying the procedures than i do. I will give him the knowing more about the system (the local system anyay, he doesn't know anything about center) but not the procedures.

we have tried briefing and all he does is get pissed off because he doesn't want to hear what i have to say. I think i need to tell him that "i dont' come into your office and tell you how to do your job, you dont' come into mine and tell me how to do mine!" yeah?

[firebirdswm]

If he doesn't want to learn, that's his problem. Are you able to let him go? Sounds like he's got some serious issues that don't belong in the air.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by firebirdswm

If he doesn't want to learn, that's his problem. Are you able to let him go? Sounds like he's got some serious issues that don't belong in the air.

he is an instrument student. and yeah, he has some flaws at the personality level as my friend told me, major mood swings

[moxiepilot]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

I think i need to tell him that "i dont' come into your office and tell you how to do your job, you dont' come into mine and tell me how to do mine!" yeah?

Not the way I would approach it -

First, you need to deal with this issue immediately. You are the authority figure no matter what the student thinks. By shutting up (yes I have done that too) you have fallen into the "which is worse?" of two evils in the air - resignation or fighting. I would have done the same, deal with it on the ground.

Now as for the solution I would approach it by sitting down in the office with your chief or boss in the room as well as the student. In a matter of fact manner I would say this:

Okay student, here is the situation, you are coming to our facility to learn how to fly. I as well as the other instructors have experience you do not flying airplanes. You have experience I do not by communicating with pilots what their actions should be to flow fluently with ATC procedures. Unfortunately that experience is leading into learning difficulties by not listening to what I have to say in the cockpit as to how to fly the airplane.

We as pilots have our rules and you as ATC have your rules. Those rules are not necessarily the same because it is comparing apples to oranges. In the cockpit you are a PILOT, NOT an Air traffic controller.

Here is the solution which you can accept or decline - In the cockpit I am the instructor and you will do what I tell you in order to train you as a pilot as to how pilots do things. When you are certified you can do things your way, but until then I am responsible for training you and I will not have my authority usurped because you think something should be done another way.

If you can not deal with this then you need to find another instructor or train somewhere else.

Then the choice is theirs to continue training and you have established who the big dog is. If they are going to be dangeerous none of us needs him in the air. You can afford to loose him as a student, trust me.

Also feel free to print this out and say it ad verbatum to the pilot

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by moxiepilot

Not the way I would approach it -

First, you need to deal with this issue immediately. You are the authority figure no matter what the student thinks. By shutting up (yes I have done that too) you have fallen into the "which is worse?" of two evils in the air - resignation or fighting. I would have done the same, deal with it on the ground.

Now as for the solution I would approach it by sitting down in the office with your chief or boss in the room as well as the student. In a matter of fact manner I would say this:

Okay student, here is the situation, you are coming to our facility to learn how to fly. I as well as the other instructors have experience you do not flying airplanes. You have experience I do not by communicating with pilots what their actions should be to flow fluently with ATC procedures. Unfortunately that experience is leading into learning difficulties by not listening to what I have to say in the cockpit as to how to fly the airplane.

We as pilots have our rules and you as ATC have your rules. Those rules are not necessarily the same because it is comparing apples to oranges. In the cockpit you are a PILOT, NOT an Air traffic controller.

Here is the solution which you can accept or decline - In the cockpit I am the instructor and you will do what I tell you in order to train you as a pilot as to how pilots do things. When you are certified you can do things your way, but until then I am responsible for training you and I will not have my authority usurped because you think something should be done another way.

If you can not deal with this then you need to find another instructor or train somewhere else.

Then the choice is theirs to continue training and you have established who the big dog is. If they are going to be dangeerous none of us needs him in the air. You can afford to loose him as a student, trust me.

Also feel free to print this out and say it ad verbatum to the pilot

i like that, on tuesday we will have a little chat

[Dugie8]

I'd rhoshambow his ass.

[mojo6911]

Simply tell him that you are his instructor, and he doesn't want to listen to you in the plane, you will terminate the flight immediately, each time.

[tgrayson]

you have established who the big dog is.

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

i like that, on tuesday we will have a little chat

Let me offer a different perspective. An anti-authority person is engaged in a power struggle in which there are winners and losers. If you manage to come out on top in the dominance area, you're kind of endorsing his worldview. Regardless of whether he loses a battle, he will still be fighting the war when he has a chance.

Instead, you might consider this an opportunity to alter his behavior through education. If you truly have a reason for what you are teaching, then it should be possible to make this clear to him. If you don't have a reason, then you should either figure out what the reason is, or consider that there is no reason. I certainly have given up arbitrary goals when I realized I could not justify them.

Negotiate. As a controller, he *may* be right in some things, but is likely wrong on others. Use the AIM, the 7110.65, and testimony from other controllers to challenge him. Help him understand he only knows IFR procedures from the controller side, and they tend to know little of pilot responsibilities. In the end, you might learn something too.

If I ever had to resort to "I am the instructor and you are the student," then I would consider myself to have failed in my mission.

[BuickCFI]

Instead, you might consider this an opportunity to alter his behavior through education. If you truly have a reason for what you are teaching, then it should be possible to make this clear to him. If you don't have a reason, then you should either figure out what the reason is, or consider that there is no reason. I certainly have given up arbitrary goals when I realized I could not justify them.

this i have been trying to do, but it is difficult as he really doesn't want to hear what i have to say, he just wants to go out there and fly whether it be the right way or the wrong way

[B767Driver]

The student has chosen you as his teacher. IMO, if he fails to adhere to your curriculum and instruction, not due to lack of effort, but due to insufficient respect and self-control...then he fails the privilege to continue in your curriculum.

If, despite your best efforts as a teacher, you are unsuccessful to persuade the student to complete your objectives with respect and measured discipline...I would not allow the student to continue the course of instruction.

I couldn't cite the specific FAA source...but the emotions have been singled out somewhere by the FAA as hazardous behaviors. I think you have an obligation to correct the behavior or discontinue the training.

If possible, have another instructor conduct a lesson or two with him for another evaluation. Possibly, it's just a personality conflict between the two of you.

[Doug Taylor]

That's why I *heart* you guys.

Rock solid guidance.

[aloft]

At some point, it's gotta be a matter of "you're gonna do things the way I teach you or you're gonna have to find another instructor". Too much lingering liability associated with signing off a student you're not 100% comfortable with endorsing.

[Katzenjammer]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

The student has chosen you as his teacher. IMO, if he fails to adhere to your curriculum and instruction, not due to lack of effort, but due to insufficient respect and self-control...then he fails the privilege to continue in your curriculum.

If, despite your best efforts as a teacher, you are unsuccessful to persuade the student to complete your objectives with respect and measured discipline...I would not allow the student to continue the course of instruction.

I couldn't cite the specific FAA source...but the emotions have been singled out somewhere by the FAA as hazardous behaviors. I think you have an obligation to correct the behavior or discontinue the training.

If possible, have another instructor conduct a lesson or two with him for another evaluation. Possibly, it's just a personality conflict between the two of you.

I think these ideas are on target.
It sounds to me like this guy has picked you as the one to sign a paper that will let him take a ride and get an instrument ticket. I think you are in a bind we all see from time to time - am I going to attest that this pilot is ready?
In this case, I think I'd conclude not and suggest he find another instructor. That is just how I'd do it. Others would probably handle it better.

[My Flight Surgeon]

These are the guys who have several administrative actions on their driver's license and have had othe legal problems. Curious to know if he had any issues and if he reported them on the 8500-8 when he did his flight physical.

Just wondering.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by My Flight Surgeon

These are the guys who have several administrative actions on their driver's license and have had othe legal problems. Curious to know if he had any issues and if he reported them on the 8500-8 when he did his flight physical.

Just wondering.

no idea as he is in the military, he is an AF controller.

If possible, have another instructor conduct a lesson or two with him for another evaluation. Possibly, it's just a personality conflict between the two of you.

now here is the funny thing, the other instructor that i work with refuses to fly with him, he did one flight with him and said he would not ever fly with him again

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

now here is the funny thing, the other instructor that i work with refuses to fly with him, he did one flight with him and said he would not ever fly with him again

Well, herein lies your answer.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by Katzenjammer

I think these ideas are on target.
It sounds to me like this guy has picked you as the one to sign a paper that will let him take a ride and get an instrument ticket. I think you are in a bind we all see from time to time - am I going to attest that this pilot is ready?
In this case, I think I'd conclude not and suggest he find another instructor. That is just how I'd do it. Others would probably handle it better.

he did just start and has something like 8 or 9 hours now of simulated instrument.

the flight he did with the other instructor was in an arrow, and he didn't want to hear anything he had to say on how to fly the arrow. the worst part of the whole situation is he wants to eventually get a CFI cert and someday get a corporate gig

[meritflyer]

I'd boot his behind to the curb, no question. There is a point where you have to tell a student to sit down, shut up, and listen if he wants to learn and learn correctly because that's how I teach. If not, I cant be your CFI. Nothing personal to the student, I just take it seriously.

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

I'd boot his behind to the curb, no question. There is a point where you have to tell a student to sit down, shut up, and listen if he wants to learn and learn correctly because that's how I teach. If not, I cant be your CFI. Nothing personal to the student, I just take it seriously.

I just send all my crappy students to Merit

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

I just send all my crappy students to Merit

... where he teaches them the real way to fly.

/oh!! burn baby!

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

... where he teaches them the real way to fly.

/oh!! burn baby!

I can't ever show my face in public again.

I will be feeling that one for weeks.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

I can't ever show my face in public again.

I will be feeling that one for weeks.

BTW, our show is on cable right now. I think its Comedy Central.

[Champcar]

Scare this piss out of him. If that don't work then goto the FAA and tell them you think his ticket should be pulled...seriously.

[mtsu_av8er]

I used to just hit them in the jaw. Fixes that problem!

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

I used to just hit them in the jaw. Fixes that problem!

Not to change the subject, but what happened to my lobsterman? What is that thing that you have crossed out?