Is this legit?

[flyTotheSky]

Ok, I need some opinions here...

One of my dad's friends wants to hire me to take him and his girlfriend on a scenic flight. Keep in mind, this flight will not stray farther than 25nm from the original airport. So it's ok as Part 119 is concerned.

Problem is, I don't have an airplane to use. Could I charge this guy for me to get checked out at a local flight school, for the cost of the actual flight, and then some?

Unless the flight school has some sort of wording in their rental agreement that I can't use their aircraft for a commercial operation, is this do-able?

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by flyTotheSky

Ok, I need some opinions here...

One of my dad's friends wants to hire me to take him and his girlfriend on a scenic flight. Keep in mind, this flight will not stray farther than 25nm from the original airport. So it's ok as Part 119 is concerned.

Problem is, I don't have an airplane to use. Could I charge this guy for me to get checked out at a local flight school, for the cost of the actual flight, and then some?

Unless the flight school has some sort of wording in their rental agreement that I can't use their aircraft for a commercial operation, is this do-able?

If it looks like cow poop, smells like cow poop, guess what?

I wouldnt do it.

If he owned the plane, it'd be a different story.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by flyTotheSky

Ok, I need some opinions here...

One of my dad's friends wants to hire me to take him and his girlfriend on a scenic flight. Keep in mind, this flight will not stray farther than 25nm from the original airport. So it's ok as Part 119 is concerned.

Problem is, I don't have an airplane to use. Could I charge this guy for me to get checked out at a local flight school, for the cost of the actual flight, and then some?

Unless the flight school has some sort of wording in their rental agreement that I can't use their aircraft for a commercial operation, is this do-able?

Why cant you just have them come where you are checked out at and take them up? Just change the terms and no one cares! No matter what Merit says it happens all the time.

[flyTotheSky]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Why cant you just have them come where you are checked out at and take them up? Just change the terms and no one cares! No matter what Merit says it happens all the time.

I wish, but I work for a part 141 school and that's a big "no-can-do"

[meyers9163]

You cant rent the planes on the side and take them up? I mean for personal use if they are family friends?

[Timbuff10]

I have been a part of several flight schools and I have never seen one that will allow you to use their planes for a commercial operation unless you are working there as a CFI.

I would pass... Really, how much time/money can you make off of random sight seeing flights anyway? Better to focus on things that you know are legit all the way around.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Why cant you just have them come where you are checked out at and take them up? Just change the terms and no one cares! No matter what Merit says it happens all the time.

But I thought the question was, "It it legit?" not "Can I get away with it?"

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

No matter what Merit says it happens all the time.

Nothing happens until it happens.

Tell that to the FAA once you get ramp checked or an accident happens.

Nice way of thinking dude. I can tell you're a sharp one.

[subpilot]

By the way, FYI. It is 25 SM for pt 119 sightseeing flights, not 25 NM.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by subpilot

By the way, FYI. It is 25 SM for pt 119 sightseeing flights, not 25 NM.

22 NM.

[BajtheJino]

Get checked out in a plane that you pay for. Pay for the sightseeing trip. Leave the airport. Have the guy write you a check.

[flyTotheSky]

Originally Posted by subpilot

By the way, FYI. It is 25 SM for pt 119 sightseeing flights, not 25 NM.

Got me!

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Nothing happens until it happens.

Tell that to the FAA once you get ramp checked or an accident happens.

Nice way of thinking dude. I can tell you're a sharp one.

Again you show how sharp you are again! Way to call someone out and look like a great mentor yourself. I am simply stating if he's wanting to take family friends up take them up. No big deal ! But if you want to question intelligence I have no problem going there but I'll refain and be the more mature one in this situation!

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

I am simply stating if he's wanting to take family friends up take them up. No big deal !

No, thats not what you're saying. Taking your friends up and splitting the cost is one thing and per the regulations and associated AC's (which I'd suggest you read), is perfectly legal. Charging someone for a potentially illegal flight is another.

You said its done all the time. As Midlife said, it may be done but that doesnt make it legal.

As for intelligence, again, you come off real sharp.

[meyers9163]

Dude seriously you are the married one with an education how about you act like it. As I stated he can take them up and have them split the cost and or do it on the side. Nothing wrong with that. He's checked out in the plane and he takes them up because they are family friends. Dude keep your attitude up go to Flightinfo!

In addition most FBO's allow a SIGHTSEEING flight to occur! But you are right you know it all man! WOAH way to go Merit all bow to you huh?

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

No, thats not what you're saying. Taking your friends up and splitting the cost is one thing and per the regulations and associated AC's (which I'd suggest you read), is perfectly legal. Charging someone for a potentially illegal flight is another.

You said its done all the time. As Midlife said, it may be done but that doesnt make it legal.

As for intelligence, again, you come off real sharp.

You are telling me every single time you have flown and gone up with buddies you've never had anyone say I'll cover it and or give you some sort of compensation? Perhaps father pays for your flying? I cant imagine you could seriously say you havent?

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

You are telling me every single time you have flown and gone up with buddies you've never had anyone say I'll cover it and or give you some sort of compensation? Perhaps father pays for your flying? I cant imagine you could seriously say you havent?

I can say I have NEVER asked anyone to pay more then a shared expense in flying a plane, if that much.

Do you not believe me???
Is this the FAR you will use as the one you broke during your regional interview??

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

I can say I have NEVER asked anyone to pay more then a shared expense in flying a plane, if that much.

Do you not believe me???

Since you own your plane I believe you! However Merit if far off saying you have to charge a family friend full price and stuff. If this guy wants to take some friends up take them up and if they give him dinner or something then so be it. Take them up and show them around. Now if they are stragners then no dont do it but family friends heck can anyone out there say they'd not take family friends up to see around if they wanted to? I see and know nothing is wrong with that. Now if they are paying him for his time then perhaps but taking them up nothing is wrong! If they want to pay for him to get checked out whats' the difference between that and someones parents paying for them to get checked out in an aircraft at an FBO?

2nd point is Merit wanting to question my intelligence. If he wants to continue with that we will have major issues. So take it as you want bud but that stops now! I mean who was the one who was going to go to Mesa then had some 2nd thoughts about it? hmmm perhaps you did?

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Dude seriously you are the married one with an education how about you act like it. As I stated he can take them up and have them split the cost and or do it on the side. Nothing wrong with that. He's checked out in the plane and he takes them up because they are family friends. Dude keep your attitude up go to Flightinfo!

In addition most FBO's allow a SIGHTSEEING flight to occur! But you are right you know it all man! WOAH way to go Merit all bow to you huh?

There is no issue with simply sightseeing under the exemptions for holding out set in part 119. The potential issue is who is providing the airplane and is the pilot holding out?

You say, without hesitation, there is nothing wrong with it which is careless and misleading. Are you certain in your answers?

You tell the guy to take the money through the back door which is unethical and potentially illegal. Sorry if you think I have attitude. I just have no tolerance for people like yourself who have no regard for doing thing the correct and potentially legal way.

I am not certain enough of the potential interpretation to tell him to go do it. So, if you dont know the answer, dont shout out some random thought. You're careless responses may end up getting someone into trouble.

[meyers9163]

Dude seriously! There is nothing wrong with him taking up family friends! SIMPLE...... Now getting paid is the 2nd thing. Nothing is stated you cant take up family friends and allow them to pay their share for it. And if they do that what's wrong? You care to explain that and the difference between someone paying for their child to get checked out in an airplane? Same difference someone else is paying for the flying? Is that illegal!?

My thoughts were not random rather fact that you can take someone up and split the cost. It happens all the time and nothing is wrong with the split cost of things. In addition if they were to pay him later in some other way as a thank you so be it. Better yet have them go through the FBO and do a "sight seeing flight" do you have issues with that bud?

Thirdly the only ONLY concern is the checking hiim out in an airplane since he cant do it at the place he's currently out. As he already stated and is correct!

Fourth and final point is I've spoken with many people off my JC list on AIM who no longer are active members on this forum. It is people like you are are rude and reckless with their responses and calling people out and questioning their intelligence and or reasons for being in the industry that have made them become inactive as members. perhaps you should do some thinking as not only an educated man but a family man with children as to how you respond. Take a little more time to be thoughtful with your responses and if you do want to critize someone with their comments perhaps go about it in a different way other then stating, "dude your dumb" but you are correct about the rest as you are Gods gift to aviation and Jetcareers! Congrats for finding another way of making a fellow JCer have less respect for yourself and what use to be one of the best sites on the net.

[SteveC]

Turn the heat down a couple of notches guys. Let's not be messing Doug's living room.

[meyers9163]

Gotcha!

[meyers9163]

Merit I understand you stating your displeasure with how I stated it happens all the time. However I really believe if this guy wanted to take someone up and all for a sight seeing flight and couldnt with his planes that he should be able to do it else where. As long as he's not operating under any other regulations and takes into account he's just doing it as a family friend then he should be ok.

Yes people all the time do things against the fars. Can anyone say they never hae broken a FAR? The very reason an Airline will ask you that question yourself when you inteview more, because they understand that we are all not perfect. I have intentially broken a far off the top of my head no, but is there a possibility I have yes. More so when it comes to commercial regulations a lot is open for interpretation. There is nothing cut and dry about it. I suppose the best response would have been speak with FSDO and ask how you can make it legit? Because not one person here knows what the exact and right answer truely is. We all know how we interprete the regualtions for ourself but not how the FAA does.

Heck for this case it goes back to my question back in the day about getting a plane for a company and flying it back. We all said oh no you cant do that but when I called FSDO they said go ahead nothing wrong with it. Yet I was picking up a plane for a person not being a commercial pilot at that time and we all stated "gas" is flight time. Yet I called and got FSDO to say it was ok.

Moreover this does not excuse calling people out and degrading them. We as a site are here to answer questions and help each other out. Perhaps the 1st responses were quick and not thoughtout however the gentlemen asking is a CFI himself. Yet he knows exactly what I mean by "things happen" all the times. Yet sitting back and stating I hate these people who do this is absolutely ignorant. First to say that one has no clue and isnt sharp by reading a few post is ignorant. By the way this past Saturady I walked with graduation with a perfect 4.0 through four years of college. Graduating with honors. Oh yeah and over those 4 years I've been running an at risk youth center for children on the near east side who live in poverty and the most dangerous parts of town. With that came grant writting, managing staff, school administrators, parents, etc. Yet you sit back and take a stab without any knowledge of whom I am.

However you are right, I am still learning myself. I am a young about to be CFI and there's lot I'm here to learn. You know more then I currently and that is fact. However I'm here to learn and gain more knowledge so I can help the industry. Thus you were in my shoes at one point. Therefore I want people to come and be part of our FORUM and feel welcomed. Needless to say I find attacks and questioning of ones intelligence very very poor in judgement let alone just degrading for a person to do as well. I wish you nothing but the best and hope we all can learn a lesson from this thread on how to conduct ourselves. And to start and show how its done I apologize for any hard feelings you have from my prior comments.

[MidlifeFlyer]

C'mon guys. Let's have some reality here.

From a strictly legal standpoint, the OP's question as written

One of my dad's friends wants to hire me to take him and his girlfriend on a scenic flight.

involves a flight that, in order to be legit under the FAR,

1. The pilot must be a commercial pilot with a current 2nd class medical certificate; and

2. The pilot must be part of a drug and lacohol testing ptogram; and

3. The flight must stay within 25 SM of the departure airport and must not land anywhere else.

That part's pretty clear. And if for some reason the FAA wanted to bust the pilot, it wouldn't even breathe hard enough to work up a small sweat.

Beyond that, you can find all sorts of ways to tweak the sceanrio and, even if technically unlawful, be able to justify it to yourself as so minor as to not matter - like exceeding the speed limit in a car.

I don't really have a problem with that. So long as you understand the rule, whether you choose to violate it or not is pretty much your buisness (so long as you are not presenting a true danger that ends up reflecting badly against GA again).

Whether I or Merit or anyone else thinks you shouldn't is pretty much irrelevant. Hey if there's an incident that draws the FAA's attention or you do it too much and the 135 operatior down the ramp reports it, that certifciate action seeking recovation is your problem, not mine.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by flyTotheSky

Ok, I need some opinions here...

One of my dad's friends wants to hire me to take him and his girlfriend on a scenic flight. Keep in mind, this flight will not stray farther than 25nm from the original airport. So it's ok as Part 119 is concerned.

Problem is, I don't have an airplane to use. Could I charge this guy for me to get checked out at a local flight school, for the cost of the actual flight, and then some?

Unless the flight school has some sort of wording in their rental agreement that I can't use their aircraft for a commercial operation, is this do-able?

Fly, you were getting some good answers so I stayed out of it, but with the thread creep into the realm of morality, if you don't mind my 2¢...

I'm assuming your are a commercial pilot planning a legitimate flight to take advantage of the things you are allowed to do with a commercial certificate under Part 91. I don't know whether that is the case or not; I'm just assuming it is.

The only 119 reg issue you may have missed is the drug-and-alcohol testing one. Sightseeing flights within 25 miles that start and end at the same airport are exempt from operator certificate requirements under 119.1(e)(2). But 135.1(a)(5) says that certain Part 135 rules apply to these flights anyway. Those rules, contained in 135.249, 135.251, 135.253, 135.255, and 135.353 are the drug and alcohol testing rules. The FAR dealing with commercial ops are far more complicated than the usual Part 91 stuff.

If you meet all the requirements and it's a legitimate sightseeing hire, what you charge is between you and the people who hire you. Want to charge $2300/hour to help cover the cost of your checkout, aircraft rental, insurance, and a healthy profit so you can put a downpayment on that cool Pilatus, I could be wrong, but I really don't think it's an FAR problem. There may be other issues, but I don't think it's an FAR problem.

You're real problem is practical - where you get the drug-alcohol test program and whether the place you rent the airplane will cover commercial flights by you.

Are you a member of the AOPA Legal Service Plan? If this is something you want to do, join the plan and get some real advice - heck, if the answer is yes, you can add the fee for joining to the cost of the flight!