Need Advice on a Difficult Student

[FlyEDouglas]

Here's the deal. I recently started at a new school and took over a bunch of students for a cfi that just got an airline job. One of the students is proving to be rather difficult. I'll try to break it down as much as possible.

This is what I know so far about the student: He is a senior in High-school. He rides a motorcycle. He likes to speed A LOT. He is about the most invincible person I've ever met in my life... or so he thinks. I've only met him twice and flown with him once. He has an argument for pretty much every word that comes out of my mouth. i.e. (me) "My job is to teach you to be as safe and efficient a pilot as possible." (his response) "Your job is to sign my logbook." He has around 30 hours. He can handle the airplane pretty well. Not the best I've ever seen. His landings could use some work (3-pointers for the most part, then pushes forward on the yoke if/when it starts to bounce). He's fine with pattern work and local radio procedures. His radio skills outside the local area (his comfort zone I'm assuming) are weak. He seems to take things I say as suggestions only. For instance we started to bounce on a landing and I said "Go around" and he continued with the landing. He has openly said that he likes to test the limits (referring to flying/driving/etc.) He is also very convinced that he can get away with many things very easily because it's hard to get caught. It's as if he has absolutely no respect for safety, the system, etc. I don't particularly care if he respects me (I'm only 4 years older than him) but I do wish he would respect my experience or something. I just don't quite know where this is going to go. Any ideas?

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by FlyEDouglas

Here's the deal. I recently started at a new school and took over a bunch of students for a cfi that just got an airline job. One of the students is proving to be rather difficult. I'll try to break it down as much as possible.

This is what I know so far about the student: He is a senior in High-school. He rides a motorcycle. He likes to speed A LOT. He is about the most invincible person I've ever met in my life... or so he thinks. I've only met him twice and flown with him once. He has an argument for pretty much every word that comes out of my mouth. i.e. (me) "My job is to teach you to be as safe and efficient a pilot as possible." (his response) "Your job is to sign my logbook." He has around 30 hours. He can handle the airplane pretty well. Not the best I've ever seen. His landings could use some work (3-pointers for the most part, then pushes forward on the yoke if/when it starts to bounce). He's fine with pattern work and local radio procedures. His radio skills outside the local area (his comfort zone I'm assuming) are weak. He seems to take things I say as suggestions only. For instance we started to bounce on a landing and I said "Go around" and he continued with the landing. He has openly said that he likes to test the limits (referring to flying/driving/etc.) He is also very convinced that he can get away with many things very easily because it's hard to get caught. It's as if he has absolutely no respect for safety, the system, etc. I don't particularly care if he respects me (I'm only 4 years older than him) but I do wish he would respect my experience or something. I just don't quite know where this is going to go. Any ideas?

Two words.

SHOCK COLLARS!!

[CFIse]

How supportive are the people you work for? The school is under no obligation to teach this person to fly - they're a customer, and as long as the reasons you decline to do business with them aren't covered by the multitude of regulations related to disabilities or equal rights or veterans or any number of other things you can just tell them to go away.

We did that to one at least one student and a couple of renters - not pleasant, but if you've looked at the risk and don't believe the student can be taught the judgement needed to be a safe pilot then you're far better off firing them as a customer.

[PanJet]

Perhaps talk to your supervisors first, but my inclination would be to sit down and have a talk with him. Tell him that you are under no obligation to sign anything in his logbook, and if he doesn't change his attitude about authority and safety that he can find a new instructor but you won't sign his logbook.

[FlyerJosh]

Sounds like a classic anti authority attitude. It's time to have a chat with your boss to ensure that you have his support, and then it's time to have a sit down. I'd encourage you to also invite his parents into the meeting.

First thing first, explain that for him to solo again, you have to conduct all of the necessary flight training per the regs. And until you are confident in his abilities, he's not getting an endorsement.

Second, explain straight out that if he pulls crap like he has again in the air (such as not immediately following a "go around" instruction), lessons over. PERIOD. You have the controls, last time around the pattern, park the airplane and he goes home. End of story.

Some folks you just can't get through their skulls. But the fact is, he needs you more than you need him. If you don't think that he'll buck up, then he's a liability that you don't need- particularly considering the fact that he can definitely hurt your career with a bone headed move (not to mention hurt himself and the flight school).

[jrh]

Originally Posted by FlyerJosh

But the fact is, he needs you more than you need him. If you don't think that he'll buck up, then he's a liability that you don't need- particularly considering the fact that he can definitely hurt your career with a bone headed move (not to mention hurt himself and the flight school).

[FlyEDouglas]

Originally Posted by PanJet

Perhaps talk to your supervisors first, but my inclination would be to sit down and have a talk with him. Tell him that you are under no obligation to sign anything in his logbook, and if he doesn't change his attitude about authority and safety that he can find a new instructor but you won't sign his logbook.

I did this today. When he said it was my job to sign his logbook I made it VERY clear that I had NO obligation WHATSOEVER to sign his logbook. I also made it very clear that my entire career rests on that cfi number and signature that I scribble in peoples' logbooks. And that I don't scribble it in anyone's logbook unless I feel 100% sure that person is not going to jeopardize their safety, my safety, or the safety of anyone else. I don't have a problem letting my employers know that I will not sign him off if I'm not comfortable with it. But I would like to resolve the situation if I can. My hope is to try to fix his way of thinking and get him to have a little bit more respect for aviation, airplanes, safety, and the experience that he does not yet have.

[subpilot]

Anti-Authority....check

Invinsible......check

Macho....check


Too many red flags with this one. I would have a man to man talk with this guy and even give him to another instructor to get a second opinion on his attitude. That way when you finally do drop him, you have someone else to back you up.

[montanapilot]

Originally Posted by FlyEDouglas

I did this today. When he said it was my job to sign his logbook I made it VERY clear that I had NO obligation WHATSOEVER to sign his logbook. I also made it very clear that my entire career rests on that cfi number and signature that I scribble in peoples' logbooks. And that I don't scribble it in anyone's logbook unless I feel 100% sure that person is not going to jeopardize their safety, my safety, or the safety of anyone else. I don't have a problem letting my employers know that I will not sign him off if I'm not comfortable with it. But I would like to resolve the situation if I can. My hope is to try to fix his way of thinking and get him to have a little bit more respect for aviation, airplanes, safety, and the experience that he does not yet have.

not to nitpick but you actually are required to sign their logbook if they want you to. (not that he needs to know that though)

i say a good old fashioned ass whoppin may do the trick.

[P&H]

Don't take this the wrong way, but it appears as though there is a serious misunderstanding about who the boss in the cockpit is. You should be. He is.

That's the first thing that's gotta change. Up there, it's your way or the highway. And you tell him that if he can't accept that, then he can't learn to fly. If any student of mine disobeyed an order to go around, the airplane would be mine. If at that point he became combative, the feds would meet him on the ground at the airplane and, with any luck, it would be the last time he got behind the controls of one.

End of story.

[sopdan]

I didn't end up reading all of these responses, but I had an identical student. All of the hazardous attitudes rolled into one package. It really is uncanny, the similarities.

Fortunately, my school has a policy of 'if any student or instructor has an issue/conflict w/ the other, a change of assignment will be made, no q's asked.' So I sat down w/ my chief and explained that I was never going to sign the kid off ever, period, and why. (by the time I got him, he was w/ in a few lessons of the checkride) Voila, off of my hands, and certificate... YMMV

Oh, and I only flew w/ him a few times before coming to this conclusion. It was ridiculous.

[moxiepilot]

flyd-

Funny that most of us who have been teaching for a bit will have a story about the exact same kind of student. In my experience most of these types of students have bee dropped by the instructors and the company recommends they find training elsewhere. I however, have a very supportive administrative staff and that helps.

Unfortunately the teenagers seem to fall into one of two categories for me, snarky or compliant. Sounds like you got a snarky one. I made it clear to my student that the privilage given to him by me is not only based on ability, but attitude. if it doesnt change, then no solo endorsement.

dangling that carrot only works so long though. it needs to be a shift in attitude all together. just like training the skills of flying you may have to train the skills of attitude, and that is no easy feat.

ultimately i've said to those type of students that they need to demonstrate to me they have the knowledge, skill and attitude and i can only deteermine that through their actions not by that they say they would do.

tell the student your concerns and one of two things occur. they change or they dont. if they dont your actions are clear, not easy, but clear: why don't you come back in a few years when you can handle the responsibility of being a pilot, k? usually that statement gets their attention.

good luck, please kjeep us posted

[mojo6911]

You must break him down. I think the FOI suggests something challenging that is out of his skill level, to bring him back to earth. Try to get him into actual IFR and let him handle it from there.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by montanapilot

not to nitpick but you actually are required to sign their logbook if they want you to. (not that he needs to know that though)

He's required to sign his logbook to indicated that instruction was given, but not endorsements which would let him solo, etc..

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

He's required to sign his logbook to indicated that instruction was given, but not endorsements which would let him solo, etc..

Yes, 61.189(a) says an instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom he has given flight training, and under 61.51(h)(ii) a description of the training given, could be something like this:

"Student would not go-around when told to do so. I had to forceably take the controls." You should document the flight in detail. Don't try to keep it in the little narrow box provided for a normal entry. This is not a normal entry.

You'll probably not have him for a student any longer after one truthful logbook entry.

[SmitteyB]

Or you may just say that the flight was not a training flight, therefore the student may NOT log the flight.

This sounds like a problem at home. Parents maybe don't enforce any authority, and let him do what he wants. This student obviously need reprimanding of some sort. Like said above, I would put some nasty remarks in his logbook that "Student does not demonstrate safe ADM, etc".

Something has to get through to this kid.

[Fly4Pay]

Originally Posted by nosehair

Yes, 61.189(a) says an instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom he has given flight training, and under 61.51(h)(ii) a description of the training given, could be something like this:

"Student would not go-around when told to do so. I had to forceably take the controls." You should document the flight in detail. Don't try to keep it in the little narrow box provided for a normal entry. This is not a normal entry.

You'll probably not have him for a student any longer after one truthful logbook entry.

BINGO! If he wants it signed off, SIGN IT! Honesty hurts, sometimes.

Mojo is on the right track as well--if he thinks he's so hot (the FOI terms that an "overconfident" student), just keep upping the ante until he can't make the grade. From the sound of it, it won't take long.

Our job as instructors is to teach flying--not to be the dad this kid never had. As tough as it is to do sometimes, MAKE THE RIGHT CALL. Never be afraid NOT to solo a student or send him/her to a check if they aren't ready. In my military instructional career, I had a student who just wasn't making the grade at ALL. When I called her home unit (she was a Guard type), I found out her dad was a full bird colonel in charge of their entire flight wing!!! (At that point, the lowly captain [me] gulped wondering what THIS would mean.....). I said, "well, his daughter isn't cutting it as a pilot." They understood and fully supported me (apparently it wasn't completely unexpected), but for a while there, I thought I was toast!

BUT... I still made the call. And that's what you may end up having to do with this kid. Please do. I'd prefer not to see him indulging his desire to "buzz" an airliner or something...

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by nosehair

Yes, 61.189(a) says an instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom he has given flight training, and under 61.51(h)(ii) a description of the training given, could be something like this:

"Student would not go-around when told to do so. I had to forceably take the controls." You should document the flight in detail. Don't try to keep it in the little narrow box provided for a normal entry. This is not a normal entry.

I love it!!

[soonerpilot06]

If it comes down to letting this guy go, make sure you help out every instructor and all pilots for that matter by notifying the FSDO. This will aid in covering your tail.

[Pietrantonio]

Good thing we all have our ratings. This kid could up the age limit for obtaining a PPL. Does he plan on making a career out of aviation? That's scary, 140 passengers with a schizophrenic pilot. He's really not ready to be a PIC. Good luck, I hope everything works out with your student.

[Grabo172]

Originally Posted by FlyerJosh

Second, explain straight out that if he pulls crap like he has again in the air (such as not immediately following a "go around" instruction), lessons over. PERIOD. You have the controls, last time around the pattern, park the airplane and he goes home. End of story.

[murphfly]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

You must break him down. I think the FOI suggests something challenging that is out of his skill level, to bring him back to earth. Try to get him into actual IFR and let him handle it from there.

I don't think breaking the regs is a good way to fix the situation...but I know what you mean (i just wouldn't tell everyone on this forum site).

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by murphfly

I don't think breaking the regs is a good way to fix the situation...but I know what you mean (i just wouldn't tell everyone on this forum site).

What would be breaking the regs? File, take him in IMC, let him fly...

[StogieC]

Sounds like this kid has read the books, has a decent hand on maneuvering the aircraft, and thinks he's gods gift to aviation.

How about going old school?

Spin Him! Spins used to be required for the PPL. I had to before I soloed. Remember your first spin?

Accelerated maneuver stalls, nothing like your first stall at over 45 deg of bank to humble you.

This kid needs to understand that he has something to learn from you. Right now he thinks that he is a natural and could jump in an F4 and dogfight Duke Cunningham.

[Doug Taylor]

Spins ARE the great equalizer.