Dual X/C - Private

[waverebel]

Im looking for some clarification. I recently ran into a situation I was unsure about with a student who is finishing up his private. He needs an hour more simulated inst. time and also to fly his dual night X/C.

My question is...Can we fly the night cross country with him planning a route by and using VOR's while he is under the hood. That way we knock two birds out with one stone, so to speak. I understand where it would be extremely beneficial for him to learn to navigate by looking outside (hence the requirement) but I was wondering if this would be legal and meet the requirements.

I searched briefly but couldnt find anything. Thanks for the help

[Fly_Unity]

Originally Posted by waverebel

Im looking for some clarification. I recently ran into a situation I was unsure about with a student who is finishing up his private. He needs an hour more simulated inst. time and also to fly his dual night X/C.

My question is...Can we fly the night cross country with him planning a route by and using VOR's while he is under the hood. That way we knock two birds out with one stone, so to speak. I understand where it would be extremely beneficial for him to learn to navigate by looking outside (hence the requirement) but I was wondering if this would be legal and meet the requirements.

I searched briefly but couldnt find anything. Thanks for the help

I dont think anywhere it says in the FARS that the night requirement has to be navigation by looking out the window. When I was doing my night cross country for my private, it was pitch black for about an hour, and my instructor said that since I was flying in reference solely to instruments, that it counted towards instrument time, even though I didn't have the foggles on, and it was in Visual conditions.

[surreal1221]

I did just this, except my flight plan was for visual landmarks - and we ended up just navigating via VOR while under the hood.

Needed 1.5 of night, and .9 of instrument - worked out just fine, got 2.2 night, and 1.1 of it was instrument.

[qflyer]

FAR 61.109
(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight

You can certainly combine the hood time and the night X-C. Actually he has to recieve instruction on navigation systems while under the hood...Why not combine that with the night X-C?

I understand where it would be extremely beneficial for him to learn to navigate by looking outside

Haven't you already covered this with him on his day X-C flights?

I usually do my night X-C trip to Anniston (now Nashville since Anniston shut down) for a tour of the FSS...that's a long enough trip that I can let them do one leg visually and the return trip under the hood...Have fun!

[PanJet]

Personally I'd save most of the simulated instrument time for day flights. The reason I say this is because the night requirement is small enough as it is, and I find it highly important that students be able to navigate at night without being totally reliant on instruments. I'm a huge proponent of flying at night and knowing how it's done. Especially being a CFI in the Pacific Northwest, it's very important to be in the know if you're planning to fly at night. It's a whole different ball game going VFR at night, and I'd make the best of the short time of night training. This is not to say that I wouldn't do any simulated instrument at night, but I would keep it to probably less than an hour.

[qflyer]

Originally Posted by PanJet

...the night requirement is small enough as it is, and I find it highly important that students be able to navigate at night without being totally reliant on instruments. I'm a huge proponent of flying at night and knowing how it's done.

Just because the minimum is 3 hours doesn't mean you can't fly more...just because you can send a guy for the ride at 40 hours doesn't mean you do if they are not ready. I treat the night flying requirement as I do any other requirement - if I'm not comfortable with the student's abilities after the minimums are met, I give him more training. During the winter months, the short days usualy allow most of my students to get more like 5-10 hours of night flying, but it does become more difficult during the summer months when it doesn't get nighttime 'til 9:45

[moxiepilot]

actually combining hood time with VFR cross countries technically eliminates that x-c from the requirement if the examiner so chooses.

VFR - visual flight rules, not mostly visual most of the time.

Doing any part of it under the hood gives the examiner the right to discount the x-c flight. I have known DPE's to do this.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by moxiepilot

actually combining hood time with VFR cross countries technically eliminates that x-c from the requirement if the examiner so chooses.

VFR - visual flight rules, not mostly visual most of the time.

Doing any part of it under the hood gives the examiner the right to discount the x-c flight. I have known DPE's to do this.

That does not make them right. They are wrong. The requirement for night x/c does not specify no hood time during that time.

Of course, it is a curse of the business, you have to "put up" with your local yokel examiner if he/she chooses to impose their own rules into the business. Or make a formal written complaint to the FSDO.

I do think that a large amount of hood in the night x/c is not good, generally speaking, but each individual is different.

Night visual cues are the main purpose of night x/c at that level, but 15 minutes out of an hour and a half is a good training scenario, and the DE's have no authority or regulation to back up discounting any hood on this x/c.

[SkyKing]

I think navigating at night using visual references is comparably different than doing the same during the day. I find that a lot of my students have problems navigating at night. Therfore I beleive conducting a whole night X/C under the hood is unproductive from the student training perspective.

If you want to combine, why dont you have him fly one way of the X/C with visual references only (GPS and VOR will be out of service) and on the way back they can use VOR or GPS under the hood if you'd like. If you make the night X/C long enough (~80-90 NM) they will get 1 hr of IR time on the way back

[PanJet]

Originally Posted by qflyer

Just because the minimum is 3 hours doesn't mean you can't fly more...just because you can send a guy for the ride at 40 hours doesn't mean you do if they are not ready...

Absolutely, but I'm also a proponent of keeping things efficient. For some students, money is tight enough that every hour of training must be as productive as possible, therefore I'm going to do my best to make it that way. If they need more than the minimums, they're going to have to get it, but if they're good enough to be proficient at or slightly over the minimums, then I'm going to do what I can to make the best of that small amount of time training them.

Originally Posted by SkyKing

If you want to combine, why dont you have him fly one way of the X/C with visual references only (GPS and VOR will be out of service) and on the way back they can use VOR or GPS under the hood if you'd like. If you make the night X/C long enough (~80-90 NM) they will get 1 hr of IR time on the way back

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by moxiepilot

actually combining hood time with VFR cross countries technically eliminates that x-c from the requirement if the examiner so chooses.

VFR - visual flight rules, not mostly visual most of the time.

Doing any part of it under the hood gives the examiner the right to discount the x-c flight. I have known DPE's to do this.

That doesn't make much sense to me...

VFR = "Rules."
VMC = "Conditions"

If you are flying around with a hood on not on an IFR flight plan, you are operating VFR (Or should be!).

The reg doesn't mention VMC, just VFR.

[PanJet]

Originally Posted by nosehair

That does not make them right. They are wrong.... make a formal written complaint to the FSDO....the DE's have no authority or regulation to back up discounting any hood on this x/c.

Unless the DPE is failing you for not doing a hula dance on the ramp and kissing his beloved grandma, the FAA has a tendancy to support DPE's on most of their decisions. I've seen situations locally where the FSDO even agreed with our position, but their response to the problem with a DPE was "We support the decisions of our DPE's."

[PanJet]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

That doesn't make much sense to me...

VFR = "Rules."
VMC = "Conditions"

If you are flying around with a hood on not on an IFR flight plan, you are operating VFR (Or should be!).

The reg doesn't mention VMC, just VFR.

Actually, the reg doesn't say that all XC training has to even be VFR. What it does say is that a student:

61.93(e)

...must receive and log flight training in the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Use of aeronautical charts for VFR navigation using pilotage and dead reckoning with the aid of a magnetic compass;

and further down:

(9) Use of radios for VFR navigation and two-way communications;

Basically so long as you train on these things enough to be proficient, you can be VFR, IFR, VMC, IMC, whatever.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by PanJet

Actually, the reg doesn't say that all XC training has to even be VFR. What it does say is that a student:

61.93(e)



and further down:



Basically so long as you train on these things enough to be proficient, you can be VFR, IFR, VMC, IMC, whatever.

Good point!

[moxiepilot]

never disagreed with the above knowledge, just wanted to point out that I have known DPE's to exclude a x-c based on the fact part of it was simulated instrument