student failed

[clumpinglitter]

I just got back from my flight school -- my student failed his private pilot checkride today. He failed on THREE areas of the PTS, all in the pattern. Most of it had to do with him not compensating properly for crosswind. I can't believe it, because he's always flown so well. I've taken him up into crosswinds way worse than today's, and he did great. Another issue is that the examiner gave him instructions that he didn't understand, and the communication problem lead to him doing a short field landing with a simulated obstacle rather than without. It also sounded like he got flustered from a poor pattern entry, which no doubt messed up his concentration from the start.

Anyway, I feel completely responsible and like I've totally failed this guy. I am surprised how hard this has hit me. I was supposed to start working with a new student next week, but I passed him off to another instructor, because I just don't feel competent. How do you deal with something like this? He's only my second checkride signoff. Has anyone here had failures right away after starting instructing? Seriously, I feel like a complete failure.

-C.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by clumpinglitter

I just got back from my flight school -- my student failed his private pilot checkride today. He failed on THREE areas of the PTS, all in the pattern. Most of it had to do with him not compensating properly for crosswind. I can't believe it, because he's always flown so well. I've taken him up into crosswinds way worse than today's, and he did great. Another issue is that the examiner gave him instructions that he didn't understand, and the communication problem lead to him doing a short field landing with a simulated obstacle rather than without. It also sounded like he got flustered from a poor pattern entry, which no doubt messed up his concentration from the start.

Anyway, I feel completely responsible and like I've totally failed this guy. I am surprised how hard this has hit me. I was supposed to start working with a new student next week, but I passed him off to another instructor, because I just don't feel competent. How do you deal with something like this? He's only my second checkride signoff. Has anyone here had failures right away after starting instructing? Seriously, I feel like a complete failure.

-C.

The very first guy I put up failed his oral. Turned out he had severe test anxiety.

This is NOT your fault. Your student failed, not you. Think about when you were a student. If you failed a checkride, who would you blame? Yourself, right? Not your instructor.

I assume you've talked to your student about it right? What did they say?

[taseal]

that sucks man

yeah it can be stressful... we've all gone through it... so he didnt compensate for the crosswind on final? what were the winds in what plane? (just curious) i remember my hands were all sweaty and stuff, i was pretty worried myself... and I knew my stuff real good too

what happens when you fail it btw?

[clumpinglitter]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

The very first guy I put up failed his oral. Turned out he had severe test anxiety.

This is NOT your fault. Your student failed, not you. Think about when you were a student. If you failed a checkride, who would you blame? Yourself, right? Not your instructor.

I assume you've talked to your student about it right? What did they say?

I think test anxiety definitely played a part, but it's not ok to use that as an excuse. As a student, no, I probably wouldn't blame the instructor. That doesn't mean the instructor had nothing to do with it. My student obviously had problems with the wind and handling the examiner's distractions. I thought he was OK, but I was obviously wrong.

I did talk to him, yes. He's very disappointed, of course, and I feel terrible about that. I think he feels that the examiner was being overly picky. I agree with that to a point, based on his side of the story -- I haven't talked to the DPE yet. But although the examiner was probably being picky, he was letting the crosswind kick the airplane around and not flying a proper pattern because of it. He agrees with that. He used the word "frustrating" a lot -- regarding the examiner's unclear instructions, pickiness, and the wind. He also just didn't think he flew very well at all today, and that was his strongest conclusion about the flight.

Originally Posted by taseal

so he didnt compensate for the crosswind on final? what were the winds in what plane? (just curious)

He let the wind blow him too close to the runway on downwind, then he didn't compensate with the tailwind on the base leg, which lead to him overshooting final. The winds were 11 kts or so, almost a direct xwind. We've flown in stronger winds than that.

-C.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by clumpinglitter

How do you deal with something like this?

You deal with it by turning it into a victory.

Figure out what you could have done differently in preparing this student and make sure you do it for all your future students. Just like any skill, you learn by making mistakes and resolving to not make them anymore.

[Ian J]

Hey C... from reading your posts and a bit of your blog, it is easy to tell you are a knowledgeable, committed CFI. These things happen! Your student had a bad day, plain and simple. It's natural to beat yourself up over it - I know from experience. But really, if you did make any mistakes, you've learned from them. And if your student did just have a bad day as I suspect, you can better prepare future students for that possibility.

In short, time to get off the pity train - all the seats are taken and you don't have a ticket anyway.

[dc3flyer]

I know it sucks and you feel like its your fault, but don't let it get you too down... definitely don't give up! If you felt he was prepared, and everything was okay up to this point, your job was done! Some people don't cope well on checkrides. They mess one thing up, and everything else goes to the crapper. The examiner probably pointed out one thing and that led to other problems mentally for your student. You will probably fly with him tomorrow and he will do great! Just calm him down about the re-take and all should be well.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

I know it sucks and you feel like its your fault, but don't let it get you too down... definitely don't give up! If you felt he was prepared, and everything was okay up to this point, your job was done! Some people don't cope well on checkrides. They mess one thing up, and everything else goes to the crapper. The examiner probably pointed out one thing and that led to other problems mentally for your student. You will probably fly with him tomorrow and he will do great! Just calm him down about the re-take and all should be well.

It was a chain of missed questions that led my student to a pink slip. Once he got one or two wrong, he just couldn't cope.

After I re-trained him and built his confidence up, he passed with flying colors.

And BTW, when he failed initially, I felt just like you do now.

[triplec76]

Originally Posted by clumpinglitter

He used the word "frustrating" a lot -- regarding the examiner's unclear instructions

This, I heard, was a focal point during the DPE's annual (or biannual) training at the FSDO's last year. I don't know if there have been a lot of bad reports about confusion or misunderstanding, but the DPE for my CFI mentioned it to me during the oral. There were a couple of questions he had to ask a couple of times over to get me to answer correctly, and made an obvious attempt at rewording the question to get my line of thought on the same page as his.

As for the failure, I would feel the same way you do. You obviously care about your students, and that usually alone will make you a better instructor than a lot of them out there. I'm sure you will work through it and find out what went wrong and make it better the next time. Did you guys do a mock checkride? Maybe doing one of these with a different instructor would simulate a new person expecting the same insights a DPE is looking for and would make him/her feel better about being ready.

[LouieP]

Don't sweat it, just chalk it off to a learning experience and get your student right back in the seat as quick as possible and send him again. Try and get back that new student that you were supposed to start with thats why you are there. Don't be ashamed be confident, if your student sees that you feel like you're not competent then he might think you're not either. Good luck next time around.

[clumpinglitter]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

You deal with it by turning it into a victory.

Figure out what you could have done differently in preparing this student and make sure you do it for all your future students. Just like any skill, you learn by making mistakes and resolving to not make them anymore.

I know you're right here. But it does feel terrible that this experience had to come at someone else's expense. It was just such a surprise, considering how smoothly all his training has gone. I'm sure tomorrow, after a chance to regroup, I'll have a lot more perspective on this failure. In this case, I think the biggest mistake I made was not exposing my student to enough pressure. I thought I used plenty of distractions during his training, but it seems it wasn't enough.

Originally Posted by triplec76

Did you guys do a mock checkride?

Yeah. Another lesson learned from this experience is to use an instructor for the mock checkride who will be more demanding and not as laid back.

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

The examiner probably pointed out one thing and that led to other problems mentally for your student.

Uh, yeah. It started out with a rushed pattern entry, after which the examiner was apparently drawing a diagram of the runway to show where he was supposed to land. Yes, it started out badly, and he couldn't recover.

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

In short, time to get off the pity train - all the seats are taken and you don't have a ticket anyway

Oooooh, burn.

You guys here all rock. I hope you know how much. I am definitely feeling a lot of pity for myself right now. After all the work and trying so hard to make my student's training efficient, fun, and complete, this is a kick in the gut. I may take on another student after thinking about this for a while, if I can make sure I know what went wrong and that it won't happen again.

-C.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by clumpinglitter

I may take on another student after thinking about this for a while, if I can make sure I know what went wrong and that it won't happen again.

-C.

You know, it might happen again. Some things are out of your control.

What you have to watch out for now is the second student you put up for a ride. You're gonna want to over do it and stress over every little thing. Over compensation is a biatch.

Anywho, good luck, C.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by clumpinglitter

But it does feel terrible that this experience had to come at someone else's expense.

Someone else almost always suffers due to our learning experiences.

Originally Posted by clumpinglitter

In this case, I think the biggest mistake I made was not exposing my student to enough pressure.

Do you gravitate towards the warm and fuzzy side?

[clumpinglitter]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

What you have to watch out for now is the second student you put up for a ride. You're gonna want to over do it and stress over every little thing. Over compensation is a biatch.

Did that happen to you? It's rather frustrating not having much experience to draw on. Which is why this forum is so valuable. If I could buy all you guys a beer right now, I would.

-C.

[clumpinglitter]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Do you gravitate towards the warm and fuzzy side?

Are you asking if I treat students too "nice"? I would say no. Most people who know me in real life would probably agree. I'm not interested in being my student's buddy at all -- I take the job responsibilities seriously. Especially once the engine is running, it's pretty much all business. I think I'm especially tough on the ground -- I want to see quick, detailed, precise, confident answers and explanations. Both the students I sent to checkrides absolutely rocked the orals, so at least that's something positive.

I think you're saying that a critical review about my own performance now would be a good thing. In the future, I'll force my student to fly under pressure more through quizzing during maneuvers, forcing multitasking, and trying to rush them. I also think I have a tendency to accept it when the student displays good knowledge and technique about a maneuver or procedure even though they may not execute it perfectly. That one didn't come into play today, but it's something to be aware of. I'll do that through more drilling.

Dang, this is not an easy job.

-C.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by clumpinglitter

Did that happen to you? It's rather frustrating not having much experience to draw on. Which is why this forum is so valuable. If I could buy all you guys a beer right now, I would.

-C.

I would say I was WAY more worried than the first. And at the point where I normally would have signed a guy off, I doubted myself. But having no real reason to delay my student, I signed him off and he did great.

And I don't have much more experience CFI-ing than you. Been a CFI a year part time - about 120 dual given, and two PPLs under my belt. I'm still in heavy learning mode.

[BuickCFI]

Dang, this is not an easy job.

i agree 110%.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by clumpinglitter

In this case, I think the biggest mistake I made was not exposing my student to enough pressure. I thought I used plenty of distractions during his training, but it seems it wasn't enough.

...

Another lesson learned from this experience is to use an instructor for the mock checkride who will be more demanding and not as laid back.

I think you're on the right track, but be very careful how you go about doing this. The goal is to build the student's confidence and proficiency, not make them overly nervous right before the checkride.

Towards the end of my instrument training my instructor had me fly with another CFI to give me a mock checkride. The CFI was a real...umm...let's just say I didn't like his style. He was very nitpicky, made me uncomfortable, and generally tore down my confidence. Although he did give me some tips that made my flying marginally better, I felt like crap after his evaluation.

He was still around at the flight school after I became a CFI and we've gotten in some heated debates about the best way to prep students for a checkride. He's open about the fact that he thinks some pressure and intimidation is good, because he thinks it preps students to handle an intimidating examiner better.

I don't believe in that. I try to make a student as proficient as possible, then as confident as possible, then I just give them warning that if the examiner starts acting like a jerk, blow it off--I've taught them how to fly, and all they've gotta do is go fly like they've always done. The examiner is required to notify you immediately if you fail, so if the examiner isn't saying anything, that means you're passing...keep your head in the game and don't let that last less-than-perfect maneuver worry you. Maybe that's the best method, maybe not. I don't know. But I've noticed that's what tends to work the best for myself, during my own training.

Getting back to the bigger point of this thread--all the advice so far has been right on. There are many excellent CFIs who've had students fail. In fact, talk to any CFI who's signed off many students, and you'd be hard pressed to find a CFI who *hasn't* had a student fail. It sucks, and it's hard not to take it personally, but it's part of the job we do. Nothing is perfect in life. All you can do is try to learn from the past and avoid the same mistakes the next time around. Did you really think nothing bad will ever happen during your time as a CFI?

[gredenko]

Sorry C. As the others have said, don't feel so bad. You just have high standards (as you should), so it hurts a bit more. That's the price you pay for caring.

As a fellow MSPer, would you care to say the examiner your student had? Even initials? It sounds like they had "Iron" Mike Anderson.

I was flying today in your winds, and at FCM there was a 30kt crosswind on downwind...severe crabbing. If anything, students should understand that things like the rectangular course (during ground ref.) may seem trivial, but in fact they are critical to superimpose on real patterns and understand crab angles, and angle of bank when turning between cross/down/base/final.

Turn that frown upsidedown!!!!

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by clumpinglitter

I think you're saying that a critical review about my own performance now would be a good thing. In the future,

I've been instructing for close to 8 years now, and I'm always evaluating my own performance. My goal is to be able to take any input and spit out a perfectly homogenized product. In the end, I believe that just about every aspect of a student's aviating is under my control, if I can just find the right lever to move.

So I would be very hesitant to accept that a failure was my student's, rather than my own. In my view, that would be an abdication of my responsibility to improve my training system.

Sure, critically review your own performance and never stop until you hang up your wings. That's part of the joy of craftsmanship, the always striving to be better.

[clumpinglitter]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I've been instructing for close to 8 years now, and I'm always evaluating my own performance. My goal is to be able to take any input and spit out a perfectly homogenized product. In the end, I believe that just about every aspect of a student's aviating is under my control, if I can just find the right lever to move.

So I would be very hesitant to accept that a failure was my student's, rather than my own. In my view, that would be an abdication of my responsibility to improve my training system.

Sure, critically review your own performance and never stop until you hang up your wings. That's part of the joy of craftsmanship, the always striving to be better.

Here's how I see it -- he really screwed up by letting himself get all flustered, distracted, and behind the aircraft. There's really no good excuse for that, especially since it's something we had discussed. On the other side, I should have put him in more situations where he got pressured, flustered, and had to recover. There isn't much "joy" in the old craft today, that's for sure.

Originally Posted by tgrayson

As a fellow MSPer, would you care to say the examiner your student had? Even initials? It sounds like they had "Iron" Mike Anderson.

It was Barb Mack. I haven't talked to her yet, but I'm really interested to hear her side of the story. Like why she didn't believe my student after he said he didn't understand her diagram about where to touch down with the short field landing. Which she was drawing in the air. And why she was being extremely picky, to the point of getting after him when his altitude was like 20 feet off -- I'm guessing she was trying to add pressure and distractions. And why she was two hours late to the checkride while my student sat there waiting with her husband, while he went through three entire photo albums of airplane pictures to use up time. I'll add a note to this thread after I talk to her, because it's completely possible that there are good explanations for all of these things. I feel bad that my first checkride with this examiner went so badly, and now, she probably has rather negative feelings about my ability, too. So I'm hoping we can have a good discusion about the things that went wrong. I know an examiner's attitude toward the instructor definitely matters.

I've taken three rides with Mike Andersen, and he's always been great. He's not your buddy by any means during the ride, but he's very fair. I've had him try pressuring me or messing with my airplane, but he'll stop if you tell him to knock it off.

Originally Posted by jrh

He was still around at the flight school after I became a CFI and we've gotten in some heated debates about the best way to prep students for a checkride. He's open about the fact that he thinks some pressure and intimidation is good, because he thinks it preps students to handle an intimidating examiner better.

After this, I have to agree somewhat. I don't think you need to be a bully or break down confidence like it sounds he does, but a person does need some exposure to flying under pressure. If only to demonstrate that he can handle it so it's not a surprise when it happens in real life. And yeah, I kind of did think that nothing bad would happen as a CFI, because I'm supposed to have some semblance of control over the process. But I guess when people are involved, anything is posible.

-C.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by clumpinglitter

After this, I have to agree somewhat. I don't think you need to be a bully or break down confidence like it sounds he does, but a person does need some exposure to flying under pressure. If only to demonstrate that he can handle it so it's not a surprise when it happens in real life.

For what it's worth, this guy I know doesn't have that stellar of a pass rate...I can think of at least 5 signoffs he's given that have ended in failures, so maybe that, along with my personal experience with him, has lead me to believe this technique doesn't work. Or maybe it's his instructing, I don't know.

I just don't see that strong of a corrolation between pressuring a student in training and their success or failure during a checkride. I know plenty of people who have gotten the "pressure treatment" during training and still busted a ride because of nerves. I also know a lot of people who have really laid back instructors, then they get sent to a really crusty, mean, old examiner, and they do fine. I don't think pressuring a student in training accurately reflects how they'll react with a real examiner next to them.

What I *have* seen a corrolation with is a student's confidence and their chances of passing. Of course I've seen confident students fail, but usually those are the overconfident ones. A really well-balanced, sharp, comfortable, confident student can take on any examiner out there.

If putting pressure on a student boosts their confidence by proving to them that they're able to perform under pressure, then great. All I'm saying is to be careful about who, when, and where you use this technique. I don't think it's a one-size-fits all, "this is the best way to prep every student" method.

[Snickersnwa]

Originally Posted by clumpinglitter

Dang, this is not an easy job.
-C.

I agree 100%


My very first private pilot signoff failed his oral, and I took it pretty hard too. I was surprised to hear him tell me later that he only got about 2 hours of sleep the night before his oral (oral and flight split up to be on different days at the 141 school that I work at). He told me that his brother came into town from back home, and that he was up late. So, we went over what he botched up, and the rest went very well. He was a rock star on the other two stage checks in the course (from the feedback that I got from the stage check pilots), scored very high on the knowledge exam, and always did well with oral quizzing from me on a daily basis… things happen. A lot of other great advice has already been shared here. Everyone has their days…

The unsat came from messing up a MEL procedure that’s zero tolerance, but we beat the MEL to death during training…

Just keep on keepn’ on…

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by jrh

What I *have* seen a correlation with is a student's confidence and their chances of passing.

Sure, but do they pass because they're confident, or are they confident because they're good?