Spins and Parachutes

[mojo6911]

New CFI here. I am a little confused about 91.307

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds--
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.
(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by--
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with Sec. 61.67 of this chapter.

So this means a CFI cannot do spin training with a student, unless that student is training for CFI, which requires spin training?

But according to this AOPA Article:

but FAR 91.307 excuses the parachute rule for flight tests for certificates or ratings and allows authorized instructors to give spin training to any level of pilot certification without parachutes.

Which is it? Am I just reading the reg wrong?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

New CFI here. I am a little confused about 91.307(c)



So this means a CFI cannot do spin training with a student, unless that student is training for CFI, which requires spin training?

But according to this AOPA Article:



Which is it? Am I just reading the reg wrong?
[/size][/font]

ACK! NOT AGAIN!

Just kidding Mojo... it's just that there are a TON of threads on this topic already out there. I know people will answer you, but to avoid a nasty repeat, a search might help.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

ACK! NOT AGAIN!

Just kidding Mojo... it's just that there are a TON of threads on this topic already out there. I know people will answer you, but to avoid a nasty repeat, a search might help.

I tried searching for spins and parachutes, nothing useful came up. Same with spins and 91.307 and same with searching for spins in the title only.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

I tried searching for spins and parachutes, nothing useful came up. Same with spins and 91.307 and same with searching for spins in the title only.

Ahh.. well, sometimes the search function is less than optimal.

And anyway, I was wrong. It's good that old topics resurface. Bangs the rust off of it, and new people get the opportunity to learn.

[jrh]

There is an Advisory Circular dealing with stall and spin training. I forget the exact reference at the moment, but that AC clarifies how spin training can be done legally, without parachutes, by any CFI, for any reason, regardless of certificate or rating sought.

The logic is that all pilots need "spin awareness" training and actually performing spins is a valid way to become aware of them. I have no idea why they wrote the regs the way they did, because this is a constant point of confusion.

I know I've mentioned it in previous threads before, but I don't have time to look for it at the moment.

Look up that AC and if you still have questions, let me know. I can find the exact references later tonight if needed.

[MidlifeFlyer]

mojo - read carefully it doesn't say that someone has to be "going for" a CFI (I've yet to see a written declaration to that effect anyway).

All it says is that

==============================
Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds--
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to--

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating...
==============================

not "a certifciate or rating currently being pursued by the occupant." So long as there is "any" (meaning "at least one") certificate or rating that requires the maneuver, it's okay without the parachute when being taught by a CFI.

At least that's the way the FAA has pretty conistently interpreted it.

[flyguy]

The regs don't say that a person has to be training for the certificate or rating, it just says that if its a required maneuver by some PTS out there, we don't need parachutes. AC 61-67 explains it pretty well.

[nosehair]

The way I read it is: the required training in the stall/spin awareness that we are supposed to teach a beginning pilot. Even though a spin is not on the PP checkride, knowledge of spin awareness will be tested, and in following good instruction principles outlined in the FOI about the learning process, flying is an action thing. I think everyone here on this board, and an FAA or NTSB board will agree that teaching spins to all pilot applicants is a good thing. They are just not going to make it back into a regulation, yet.

You may use the actual spin to teach the regulatorily required knowledge of spins, and still be in compliance with .307(d)(2)

[mojo6911]

Thanks guys. I guess my logic was that only the CFI PTS specifically required spins, and the rest just required spin awareness. I read the AC, and it clarified it for me.

[Andrew_VT]

The Cirrus sucks!! oh wait thats not what this thread is about huh?

[Doug Taylor]

ComplexHi is going to put you in a chokehold.