Anyone ever heard of this site?

[XLR99]

I got an email recently from someone about this site:
http://www.pilotflightinstruction.com/

Somehow he got my email and supposedly has "some of my demographic information" already filled out for me from the FAA database. I went to the site & they supposedly have 90000 people registered between CFIs and prospective students. Opinions?

[Doug Taylor]

Tell him to stop spamming you!

[MidlifeFlyer]

Never ever register for a site that won't let you see anything unless you do.

Yeah, they have some "demographic information." The basic stuff taken from the FAA database. It appears that there are a few real sign-ups, though, people who have posted photos and additional information.

[XLR99]

Never ever register for a site that won't let you see anything unless you do
Tell him to stop spamming you!

Kinda what I was thinking...
Looking at it again I'm wondering if 90000 is the number of registered CFIs he pulled off the FAA database.
I'm going to pass, but I was curious if he hit every single CFI in the country with the same email.

[moxiepilot]

got the same email a few weeks ago from the guy I think his name is chris or something. all he did was filter through the FAA registry and spam you. my reply was when it's free, let me know....

[Doug Taylor]

I don't think there are 90,000 individual professional pilots on ANY website.

[iconoclast]

Jeez, Doug, tough crowd! My name is Chris and I am the creator of pilot-flight-instruction.com.

We are currently referring a couple dozen students per week to CFIs and schools all over the US.

Moxie, we're free and have been since launch. We may charge for referrals some time in the future, but until further notice, there's no charge of any kind. When we do start charging, it will only be for referrals you preview and then accept.

Pretty hard to go wrong if you're looking for more students.

CFIs often ask what my other involvement in the industry is. I'm a private pilot, was the Young Eagles coordinator for EAA14 for about a year, and am currently starting an Aviation Exploring post around an experimental aircraft build project (and the other usual exploring activities).

In my day job, I'm the SEO Manager (Internet marketing) for a Fortune 1000 company (travel), and I've built Internet user communities full-time since I started ElectriCiti, one of the first ISPs in the country in 1992.

I built pilot-flight-instruction.com because I've been crazy about all forms of aviation since I was a kid, and couldn't help noticing the dearth of student starts. From my own experience, I also realized how hard it is to find a great instructor if you're not already plugged in somewhere.

I've now flown with CFIs in San Diego, SF Bay area, Seattle, Las Vegas and Boston. Plan to fly with about 100 more this year (2 more every weekend) Will shoot video and put it up on the site.

After that, no student will ever wonder where to find a great instructor.

Thanks for running a great service here, Doug, looking forward to participating more later.

Best,

Chris

[Codyjp]

so charging a fee to connect a client to a service provider? In other industries they call these people 'pimps.' that would make me a ho.

My data is no longer available on the FAA website to help avoid this stuff. I am just not interested in a policy of "we aren't charging... yet."

[Neena]

A "PIMP"? A "Ho"? Hey, that hurts my feelings!

I'm Neena, Pilot-Flight-Instruction.com's customer service liaison by the way and you are implying that I am a MADAME. I'm the webmistress not a madame. Although I do have a little black book, I use it to log my flying hours...not trysts.

I'm a student pilot and I wish had a service like this when I was looking for an instructor.

I talk to many CFIs and students every week and so far, every one of them have been happy with the service I provide. If you aren't interested in receiving free student referrals, you can ask me to remove you from the database which I will do happily.

[Codyjp]

it may be the frequency that we (instructors) receive these 'free' offers that make us a bit jaded to the whole idea of buying students.

[iconoclast]

You must come from an interesting part of town, Cody. Where I'm from, other industries call people who refer customers to them "marketing agents, business development staff, sales reps and advertising channels" depending on which step on the value chain they occupy. These folks are generally well compensated for bringing new customers in the door.

Not wanting to participate because we may charge sometime in the future seems a bit like turning down a free Yellow pages ad this year because the Yellow pages might charge for the service next year. How does this attitude benefit your business?

In Internet marketing, the primary referral source for new customers are search engines, and it's common practice for these search engines to have both paid and free referrals. All of the top search engines started with only free referrals, and added paid referrals later. Google, in particular, built a multi-billion dollar business this way, so it's pretty clearly a business model that's not only widely accepted, but respected.

Pilot-Flight-Instruction.com is a specialized search engine. Instead of a free-text search like Google, we perform what's called structured search. Users can specify all kinds of industry-specific criterion, like Part 141 or Part 61, tail wheel, and over 100 other values. They use a structured search form and get well-organized, standardized profiles as results. Part of our value-add is allowing customers to have a profile too, and to communicate with suppliers directly on the system, and to organize and track those contacts.

We also have a full-time person who helps people conduct searches. Neena helps facilitate communication between students and schools, and filters out people with interests other than flight training. We also vet flight schools, by talking with them on the phone, meeting them in person, and even flying with them.

Cody, we'll make sure not to bother you with any new students in the Long Beach area, but is it really necessary to resort to name-calling? What a strange thing to say in a public forum with your business name attached in your signature line. Not exactly an inspiring level of professionalism on an aviation site where these slurs may be the first thing prospective students or future employers might read about you.

It's likely that since I spend a lot of time in the Southern California aviation community, we'll meet face to face some time. When we do, there are no hard feelings on my side.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck with your aviation training practice Cody.

Chris

[moxiepilot]

I just find this thread interesting now.

I'm sure that the thread link redirected a few hits to the website, whose cookie trackers identified the source and webmaster followup has created two new JC users, iconoclast -Chris and Neena.

While I appreciate the feedback from the Chris, the creator and Neena, the posts come across to me as sales pitches in the forum - bad etiquette IMHO.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I would like to see participation on the site before a pitch for your product even though it was a member who identified your service to begin with. Catch 22? Maybe.

$.02

From the rules:

2. Do not spam the forum.
If you need traffic or want to plug your business or website, please contact advertising@jetcareers.com

[Neena]

I would have loved to participate in the forums before having to respond to a nasty characterization, Moxie.

Fortunately, there were a lot of nice replies in the "member announcements" after I introduced myself, so I'll be re-joining them now...

[iconoclast]

> ...sales pitches...

Moxie, from the tenor of this conversation, I'd rather try to sell ice to Eskimos

Another pilot mentioned this thread to me; I don't chase down every random web log entry.

But when someone's throwing brickbats, especially out of ignorance, I feel it necessary to set the record straight.

My posts are intended solely to clear up the misunderstandings about who we are, what we do and what motivates us, nothing more.

As I said in my initial post, I appreciate the value of this forum, and look forward to participating in discussions of more enlightened topics in the future.

Best,

Chris

[SlantG]

Originally Posted by Codyjp

it may be the frequency that we (instructors) receive these 'free' offers that make us a bit jaded to the whole idea of buying students.

I get one offer to join yet another 'free' CFI listing service per week. Responding to them other than the big "Delete" key is a waste of time.

If I charge $59 for 30 minutes of flight time, which is enough to get out to the runway and back, fly for free, and so on, I might get one customer for a few hours out of ten "demo" flights, before they decide the whole thing is too expensive, from a list of leads beapilot.com sends every month. Once you are on beapilot.com's list, you apparently can't get off it. It's a great loss leader for manufacturer-sponsored schools like Cessna Pilot Centers, a large loss for non-supported schools like Diamond and Cirrus Centers. Another waste of time.

If I quote real prices, I get a bunch of posts from people who will never be clients. Yet another big waste of time.

We just dropped another company that charged us through the nose for their listing service. In one year I got several calls wanting information about the cheapest flying school on the field, where to get gas, and where to rent a hangar, not a single inquiry on our flight instruction.

No offense intended, but it seems the typical student drives around the local airport looking for a flight school,. The atypical student looks over the NAFI and/or AOPA list of instructors and websites, and chooses the best-looking website. The center of our market asks their business associates and friends who taught them how to fly and then finds us. None seem to waste their time on anonymous internet search engines other than Google.

[mojo6911]

Spam is spam.

[iconoclast]

Thanks for putting the conversation on a more productive footing, Slant.

What I hear you saying is that the way other referral services are configured and priced, they don't serve you very well. I couldn't agree more. Paying flat rate fees to be on a list or directory that publishes your contact info and makes no effort to qualify or filter inquiries isn't very cost effective. That's why we don't work that way.

I also understand that you don't believe intro flights are worthwhile. Although I hear varying viewpoints on this, it's kind of a non-issue for me, since we don't promote intro flights.

I don't take any offense to these comments since they're not personal attacks, just candid feedback about your business experience.

There's no doubt that word of mouth referrals are a great way to get new customers. If you've been in business long enough, maybe that's enough to fulfill your revenue and growth objectives. But for a whole lot of schools, it's not. It surely isn't for a newly minted CFI looking to build a practice.

From the customer's viewpoint, randomly driving around the local airport is probably not the most helpful experience. What do they base their judgment on - who has the best looking sign? I've been there, done that. I'd prefer to use a search engine and perform some due diligence, thanks.

Sophisticated marketplaces have online indexes so buyers can find appropriately matched sellers quickly and conveniently. Reputation is a lot easier to keep track of online, which explains the success of the credit bureau industry, eBay and Amazon (ratings, feedback, reviews).

Interesting you should mention the success of Google as a lead source. With a $162 billion market cap after only 10 years of operations, the success of their "electronic referral" service is indisputable. That income doesn't include the free referrals, which comprise the majority of their downstream click volume delivery.

So there's no argument that a first page listing on Google for an appropriate flight training keyword is really good for business.

People ask me all the time how to get top rankings on Google - my "day job" company spends tens of millions of dollars each year obtaining Google paid and organic ("free") listings. And they generate tens of billions in revenue for their effort. I manage those programs. It works.

But it's very difficult if you're not an Internet industry insider - there's a lot of arcane stuff to learn, and it's pretty competitive. Usually takes years to accomplish, even if you have the technical chops.

And yet anyone who provides flight training in cities ranging from Albuquerque to Wichita, and hundreds in between, including Columbus, El Paso, Indianapolis, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, Portland etc. can create an account on Pilot-flight-instruction.com today, put a photo up and appear *today* on the first page of Google for "<cityname> flight training" and other relevant flight training keywords.

Price? Free.

I guess if I was trying to sell anything here, I'd say "priceless" but I'm not trying to sell a thing - I don't charge for this service.

So if your idea of marketing is having prospective customers drive around the airport looking for you, more power to you. That point of view doesn't bother me a bit.

But for business professionals who are looking for innovation, improvement, efficiency, I'll keep working hard on my personal time trying to make the aviation experience just a little bit better than it was yesterday, using whatever skills and training I possess.

Thanks for your feedback, and for listening.

Chris

[BajtheJino]

I registered at you site, sent an email to myself and haven't received it yet. How exactly does your site work if all you did was comb the FAA database and repost it all?

[timeoff]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

Spam is spam.

Exactly.

Reminds me of the salesman I bought my last used car from.

[inside0ut]

This whole thread sounds like one big infomercial.

"You get not one, but TWO knives if you call right now!!"

[iconoclast]

Interesting report BajtheJino. Tech support for pilot-flight-instruction.com is probably best requested on our site, using either the help email, the feedback form, or the phone number that's on our home page.

Despite the curious choice of venue for a trouble ticket, I did look at the system personally and didn't see any logins or messages that could have possibly been from you.

If you're serious about testing the system, I'd be happy to assist you personally; just give me a call at the number on the web site between 10-6 PST M-F. Can't make it M-F? I'll make special arrangements for you on the weekend.

Kind of hard to imagine you've ever seen the system if you believe all we did was repost the FAA database. A lot of good schools and CFIs are participating, and getting students every single day, many of which we facilitate over the phone as well as through the system emails.

Nice to see your arguments on the merits of the case; Mojo, Baj, timeoff, insideout. If that's the depth of the commentary here, it's probably time to close this thread.

If anyone else has a substantial question, comment or issue to raise, I'll be happy to answer it here in open forum, through a private message, or with a personal phone call. If not, it's time to move on to more productive topics.

Best,

Chris

[BajtheJino]

Chris,

I appreciate your entrepreneurial spirit but I have to admit I don't like my name being on your website. I understand that by being licensed by the FAA I put my name, address and whatnot out there. What I did not do though was give you permission to post my name under the state I keep my permanent address in as though I was looking/hoping students would contact me. I think thats what a lot of people don't like. It's false advertising. At least to me it is.

[iconoclast]

Baj, send me a private note with your name and I'll remove your listing within the next 10 minutes.

This thing is a little like the white pages, or maybe better like the yellow pages, which contain all the default listings for all businesses (for free).

There's two ways people can opt out. The first is with the FAA - anyone can get off the list at the time their license is issued just by filling out a simple form and sending it in. You can do this at any time.

The second is just as you have - just ask us. Email, feedback form or phone. Off. Now. You can even do it yourself by logging into your account and turning it off (instructions on how to log in to your default account are right on the signup page).

We really don't get very many remove requests but when we do, we honor them promptly.

[BajtheJino]

Thanks, Chris.
PM sent.

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by inside0ut

This whole thread sounds like one big infomercial.

"You get not one, but TWO knives if you call right now!!"

right... and how is it this thread hasn't been reported as "free advertising" yet?

I think i'll report it and have a discussion with the mods to see if it can stay or if it should go.

Iconoclast, i know you and Neena are new here but we don't welcome free advertising as advertising is of the ways we're able to keep the site up and operating.

our #2 rule (if you look at the top menu where The Rules are )

2. Do not spam the forum.
If you need traffic or want to plug your business or website, please contact advertising@jetcareers.com

If you want to talk to doug about advertising, he has pretty inexpensive text and banner ads. the banner ads would include a sponsor forum to be able to discuss among the members.