Job opportunities

[Maurus]

I had a flight school owner tell me that he gets over 200 resumes a month and that it is tough to find a cfi job. Is it true at all? I have been reading the forums the past couple days and you guys make it seem like it is easy to find a job.

BTW I am currently finishing my commercial and I am working on my Multi ratings.

This all came about because of a dispute I had with the school, could just be him trying to threaten me or something.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by Maurus

I had a flight school owner tell me that he gets over 200 resumes a month and that it is tough to find a cfi job. Is it true at all? I have been reading the forums the past couple days and you guys make it seem like it is easy to find a job.

Depends. The head of my college's program told me he gets resumes in the mail on a regular basis and turns them all down because the college only hires CFIs from within its own ranks. That's a fairly common practice at a lot of schools.

It can also be hard to find work if you're picky about where you want to work, geographically speaking. You want to find a job within 50 miles of your current residence? That might be tough. There are a limited number of schools in any given area, and if they aren't hiring, they aren't hiring.

On the other hand, if you're willing to move anywhere in the country, fly any type of plane, with any type of student...basically, be very NOT picky...you could have a CFI job within a week. There are plenty out there.

Originally Posted by Maurus

This all came about because of a dispute I had with the school, could just be him trying to threaten me or something.

I have no idea what your dispute was over. I have no idea who was right or wrong in your case.

But here's a piece of advice: Don't piss off anyone in aviation. This industry is too small to make enemies. If you think you've been wronged at your school, that's fine...you can make a complaint, say your piece, and if nothing gets resolved, leave...but do your best not to make any more waves than necessary.

[flyguy]

There are a lot of schools hiring now, CFI jobs are not hard to find. The regionals are hiring large numbers these days and that's creating a lot of CFI vacancies. The school I instruct at is actually getting kind of desperate for instructors.

[Andrew_VT]

Originally Posted by Maurus

This all came about because of a dispute I had with the school, could just be him trying to threaten me or something.

Uhh yeah, thats it right there. How was this CFI job going to pay? If its the crappy $15-20/hr I'm expecting based on the little info you've already given... no big loss. CFI jobs are a dime a dozen (shortages), but the catch is that most pay crap.

[Maurus]

Originally Posted by jrh

I have no idea what your dispute was over. I have no idea who was right or wrong in your case.

But here's a piece of advice: Don't piss off anyone in aviation. This industry is too small to make enemies. If you think you've been wronged at your school, that's fine...you can make a complaint, say your piece, and if nothing gets resolved, leave...but do your best not to make any more waves than necessary.

This is good advice. Luckily this school isn't a big one like flight safety or something along those lines. I am just hoping to finish my commercial and multi since I am very close to finishing. After that I will be leaving and will get my CFI and CFII somewhere else. Maybe it is a good thing that most people in the aviation business don't like the owners



If I continued with them I would have been getting $15/hr with a constant stream of students but also have to work on the ground for no pay (this work is not with students). I have had instructors that have gotten over 100 hrs of flight time in a month, which I hear is on the high side and makes people that want in the airlines ASAP after instructing want to stay.


Anyway, I don’t need a fast track; I still have to finish my degree through ERAU's online courses.

[Andrew_VT]

Originally Posted by Maurus

If I continued with them I would have been getting $15/hr

Move over Ms. Cleo, I'm the real psychic!

[jrh]

Originally Posted by Andrew_VT

Uhh yeah, thats it right there. How was this CFI job going to pay? If its the crappy $15-20/hr I'm expecting based on the little info you've already given... no big loss. CFI jobs are a dime a dozen (shortages), but the catch is that most pay crap.

$20/hr is crap? How much would you consider adequate?

At $20/hr for 85 hours/month, you'd be getting $20k/year. In a world where regional jet pilots are getting $30k/year, I don't think $20k/year for flying a Cessna around is that bad of a deal. Especially considering the average 85 hour/month CFI is probably working less and home more than the average regional airline pilot.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by jrh

$20/hr is crap? How much would you consider adequate?

At $20/hr for 85 hours/month, you'd be getting $20k/year. In a world where regional jet pilots are getting $30k/year, I don't think $20k/year for flying a Cessna around is that bad of a deal. Especially considering the average 85 hour/month CFI is probably working less and home more than the average regional airline pilot.

At many schools you can make more. Figure in at least an hour of ground instruction for each hour of flight time and you are making $40,000/year. Again, not bad for a 172.

[Timbuff10]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

At many schools you can make more. Figure in at least an hour of ground instruction for each hour of flight time and you are making $40,000/year. Again, not bad for a 172.

Yeah, if you live at the airport and are available 62 hours a day...

[Andrew_VT]

JRH, 20/hr is crap....but its also ubiquitious

point of my post was that there is no need to go chasing around any particular 20/hr job...plenty of them to go around. Many flight schools have a shortage of CFI's right now...but they also arn't raising their pay!

If you want a decent CFI job talk to greendaypilot, flyguy and there are a few others on JC I'm forgeting that make decent money at larger outfits

[dc3flyer]

Originally Posted by jrh

Especially considering the average 85 hour/month CFI is probably working less and home more than the average regional airline pilot.

Yeah right!!!! The hardest job I ever had was being a CFI. In order to fly 85 hours a month, you will beat the airport and 135 hours, 50 of which are not paid. Not to mention that you will heave people trying to kill you.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

At many schools you can make more. Figure in at least an hour of ground instruction for each hour of flight time and you are making $40,000/year. Again, not bad for a 172.

Uhh, yeah. $40k/yr as a CFI is pretty tough to come buy. In fact I would wager if you are a CFI making >$30,000/yr you are in the top 5% of all instructors in the country.

If I were to guess, the "average" CFI would make an annualized $16,000/yr. Some make more, some make less.

$20/hr as a CFI isn't bad if you are a W-2 employee. If you're a contract CFI then that's low, because you've gotta cover advertising, insurance, etc.

Oh, and to add, most of the better paying CFI jobs (ie Academy jobs) require dual given, meaning you can't just walk into them right off the bat.

[dc3flyer]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

$20/hr as a CFI isn't bad if you are a W-2 employee. If you're a contract CFI then that's low, because you've gotta cover advertising, insurance, etc.

Yeah, but don't forget, as a contract flight instructor you can write stuff off on your taxes. When I was a contract flight instructor I wrote off a headset, advertising costs (such as business cards/posters), even my car... it can actually turn out to be more money than you would expect.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Uhh, yeah. $40k/yr as a CFI is pretty tough to come buy. In fact I would wager if you are a CFI making >$30,000/yr you are in the top 5% of all instructors in the country.

If I were to guess, the "average" CFI would make an annualized $16,000/yr. Some make more, some make less.

$20/hr as a CFI isn't bad if you are a W-2 employee. If you're a contract CFI then that's low, because you've gotta cover advertising, insurance, etc.

Oh, and to add, most of the better paying CFI jobs (ie Academy jobs) require dual given, meaning you can't just walk into them right off the bat.

I am making $15,000/year as a part time flight instructor, 9-3, no weekends, off when my kids are on vacation (so I took 2 1/2 weeks off for Christmas), taking off for my kids' field trips, in an inexpensive part of the country. So yes, you can make $40,000/year. The school pays the same for flight and ground, so I am not rushing students. Pay goes up as you fly more, so my pay rate would be higher if I flew more.
I am an independant contractor, but the school covers advertising and insurance. I carry extra insurance just in case, but the other instructors do not.
Also, get paid more for some flying (such as G1000 training). It's funny though. We can not find instructors. They would rather make less money living in Florida or California. Go figure.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

Yeah, but don't forget, as a contract flight instructor you can write stuff off on your taxes. When I was a contract flight instructor I wrote off a headset, advertising costs (such as business cards/posters), even my car... it can actually turn out to be more money than you would expect.

So since when is spending $100 to save $25 worth while? Keep in mind you don't write off that money from taxes owed, just your tax obligation. And that's only if you write off more than the $5,000 standard deduction as well, so it might not even save you any money.

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

So yes, you can make $40,000/year.

Hey man, that's great. Most places aren't like that. That was what my post was about.

Also, I'd be wary about trusting your contracted employer about insurance. Chances are they carry liability insurance for them, not for you. Good idea about carrying additional insurance. Also, insurance can be rendered obsolete without a subrogation clause. I'd check into that too.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Also, I'd be wary about trusting your contracted employer about insurance. Chances are they carry liability insurance for them, not for you. Good idea about carrying additional insurance. Also, insurance can be rendered obsolete without a subrogation clause. I'd check into that too.

Actually I checked the insurance. It covers me and the renters. That is why he charges more than another local flight school. One renter at the other flight school found this out the hard way when he bought a 152 that he wrecked. I carry extra for piece of mind... my wife and I have assets I would like to protect.
Also, for those pissing about CFI pay, when you looked at flight schools, did you look for the cheapest flight school, or the flight school with the most experienced instructors? When you got that multi-engine rating, did you go to the mega-school with instructors running from airplane to airplane getting as much ME time as they could, or did you hunt out the high time ME instructor who costs more, but actually has some real world ME experience and takes his/her time teaching you right? Have you gone out of your way to fly at least once or twice with an more experienced, but more expensive instructor for specialty training such as spins? The first question I am always asked is not about my experience, but how much I charge.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by Andrew_VT

JRH, 20/hr is crap....but its also ubiquitious

Ok, fair enough. You're not going to get rich working for $20/hr, I'll agree with you there.

The way I read your first post, I thought you were saying $20/hr is substandard, which it's not. I'd say that's your average, decent CFI pay.

You can complain about CFI pay until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't mean much at the end of the day. For the average 300 hour, freshly minted CFI, what else are they going to do?

It's like a high school dropout complaining about the low pay at McDonald's. Sure, it's low pay, and sure, the jobs are everywhere...but it's not like they qualify for anything else. You gotta do the best you can and make the most of it.

Originally Posted by Andrew_VT

point of my post was that there is no need to go chasing around any particular 20/hr job...plenty of them to go around.

Yes, that's true. But there's no reason to go and tick off any more people than you have to. You get cut from a job at one school, making $15/hr, then go to another school and work for $15/hr? Ok...that got you a lot further ahead.

Originally Posted by Andrew_VT

If you want a decent CFI job talk to greendaypilot, flyguy and there are a few others on JC I'm forgeting that make decent money at larger outfits

If all you're trying to do is make the most money, you have a good point. But there's something to be said for the work environment, location, etc. Working at big academies, teaching future airline pilots, living in Florida or California, is not everybody's cup o' tea. If you can get a CFI job working in a location you like, with decent students, and decent management, but the pay is $10/hr less than you could get at that "other" job you're not very excited about...my goodness, take the job with less pay and enjoy your life.

[Maurus]

Well when it comes to pay I have no problems with $20/hr. I will be a CFI to build the time and experience for the airlines. Besides, once I get into the airlines I will only be making $18k to $22k a year to start. If you are a career CFI I see the pay issue being a problem, but the first year in a regional usually doesn't do any better than a new CFI would do.

[NFO_FFO]

BlackHawk, et al

Just curious as to where you live? I will be retiring from military soon and have been deciding which way to go here once I am out ... other than being way out of currency by quite a few years (which I will start working on once I return from Iraq) I have read a few boards and been deciding what QOL would be in regionals versus CFI time, been trying to decde if one can have a good QOL and fly enough as a CFI.

My flight time in military does not transfer over as I was a NFO in tactical jets - CRM, navigation, radios and emergencies got down just haven't flown GA myself for about 18 yrs ...

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by NFO_FFO

BlackHawk, et al

Just curious as to where you live? I will be retiring from military soon and have been deciding which way to go here once I am out ... other than being way out of currency by quite a few years (which I will start working on once I return from Iraq) I have read a few boards and been deciding what QOL would be in regionals versus CFI time, been trying to decde if one can have a good QOL and fly enough as a CFI.

My flight time in military does not transfer over as I was a NFO in tactical jets - CRM, navigation, radios and emergencies got down just haven't flown GA myself for about 18 yrs ...

I live in the Southwest US.
The quality of life as a CFI depends, as you may have figured, on where you live, who you work for, your ratings and experience. Aerobatics, glass cockpit training, etc can get more pay in some areas of the country. Where I live, if I wanted to, I could live an avarage life between CFI pay and retirement (I have to wait until 60 to get my military retirement). Rent for a half decent apartement is $400/month. It is also dependant on the economy. Currently I have a two month waiting list for instrument students, six months for private. Two years ago, this was not the case.
I've been the regional route as a turbo-prop and jet captain. I loved the job, but preferred more time at home while still flying. Especially after my trip to the sand box. Being a CFI is a little more of a challenge as well. I saw too many pilots flying as much as they could at my regional, pissing and moaning the whole time about how life sucked as a CFI, as a 135 pilot, and as a regional pilot, but it would be MUCH better when they made it to SWA, UPS FexEx, Cont... you pick your airline.
Now having been a Navy or Marine aviator you have much to overcome.

[Aeronautik]

Originally Posted by Maurus

Job oppertunities

Just make sure you use spell-check on that resume. Neglecting that could mean a lost opportunity.

[Andrew_VT]

Originally Posted by jrh

If all you're trying to do is make the most money, you have a good point. But there's something to be said for the work environment, location, etc. Working at big academies, teaching future airline pilots, living in Florida or California, is not everybody's cup o' tea. If you can get a CFI job working in a location you like, with decent students, and decent management, but the pay is $10/hr less than you could get at that "other" job you're not very excited about...my goodness, take the job with less pay and enjoy your life.

JRH,
Thats exsactly what I've done, btw I only make $20/hr! I live 5 minutes away from the airport, actually my parents do...and I moved back home when I became a CFI. I drive 45min every day to the local state college, I have one semister left and already have my 1200hrs, which was my goal. I'm pretty much the only CFI within 50 miles, and I dont have to deal with little pukes that only want to fly a jet. I've given dual to over 30 people that I can remember, and I've only dealt with someone under 30 years old twice, and they were both rental checkouts, one of which is no longer allowed to rent from us! The point of this isnt that younger pilots suck, but that all my students are mature, and I learn alot from them.

The arrangement I have with the guy who runs the FBO (not a CFI or A+P) is that he handles the billing and schedualing for me, pays me 20/hr and charges 35/hr for me. I teach in his arrow, cherokee, and C-150 and I used to teach in his tailwheel C-140. The planes are good, G-530 in the arrow, G-430 in the cherokee, not bad for $119 and $85 respectively. If I had to do it over I'd probably just do my own schedualing and billing (i do alot anyway) and take the full $35 because he cant find another instructor anyway, he's been looking for a year now, but the current arrangment keeps things friendly. I do alot of multi-day trips with students. One student of mine is the president of a good sized company, and he and his wife befriended my girlfriend and I, so he takes us along on business trips and vacations, all expense paid (bar harbor, nantucket, chichago, detroit) in exchage for dual given along the way, he's not IR. There are many other perks like this for being "independant"! (i get alot of big bills handed to me as tips on a regular basis, and taken out to dinner too much)

Sure it was intimidating when i first got my CFI, showed up to the airport and there were 6 students who had been waiting months for CFI to come to their area, all I had was my experiance as a sailing instructor... but you pick it up fast (a fellow CFI to copy woulda been nice tho).

Sorry this is long winded, just didnt want you to get the wrong idea JRH, we seem to have alot in common from our posts so far on JC.

Edit: I just remembered another perk! My very first student was a smart cute girl I had alot in common with, I kept it student/teacher as long as I could, but we've been together a year+half now! She's now miss VT. If I was just another flight school drone with a crushed spirit I wouldnt have had a chance, but being "the man" at an airport boosted this formerly shy kids ego enough to dare to try with her.

[racerxflys]

I paid my flight instructor $20hr at VNY in 1989. You would think the pay would change with the times, apparently it has'nt.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by racerxflys

I paid my flight instructor $20hr at VNY in 1989. You would think the pay would change with the times, apparently it has'nt.

The question is. . . did you pay the money directly to the instructor or through his flight school that he worked under?

The catch is, that sure, you may be paying the instructor $20 an hour, but in reality he may only be getting $10-$12 out of that $20 after the flight school takes their cake and eats it too.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

The question is. . . did you pay the money directly to the instructor or through his flight school that he worked under?

The catch is, that sure, you may be paying the instructor $20 an hour, but in reality he may only be getting $10-$12 out of that $20 after the flight school takes their cake and eats it too.

The school may not be "taking their cake and eating it too". Figure airplane payments, insurance, fuel, maintenance, rent on the facilities, secretary (if there is one), office supplies, utilities, yellow pages, internet maintenance... the list goes on. The profit margin in running a flight school is very thin, at least at the smaller schools. Most people who run them do NOT do it for the money. Again, my question to ANYONE who complains about CFI pay... what was the first question you asked about flight training? Probably "How much?", not "How experienced are the instructors." I hear it all the time when I quote people the cost of doing training with me. It is cheaper up the highway at the large school. My ratings and experience almost NEVER come up.