CFI/CFII Reinstatement

[Instinct]

Hi all,

I unfortunately let my CFI/CFII certificate expire a few months ago. I have not flown in almost two years, and I am interested in a possible reinstatement.

I have not taken a look at the FARs recently, but if I remember correctly I should be able to obtain my MEI and this would renew my certificate.

My question would be (I'll have to get myself a copy of the new PTS, I know ), what would the MEI checkride consist of exactly? Since I do not have my MEI, and my CFI/CFII has expired, this is an interesting scenario. Should I expect some FOI?

Thank you!

[meritflyer]

MEI checkride was Vmc demo, engine in-air restart, hood work, steep turns, slow flight, ground ref, emergency descent, short field t/o and landings.

Thats it.

I doubt FOI but dont be surprised if they touch on it. FOI is usually on initials althought I hear (and had) it on other CFI rides.

[Blackhawk]

Since you are renewing your CFIs you may be asked anything about CFI/CFII and FOI. Remember, all the CFI certificates you held expired and are being renewed with this check ride under 61.199. This is different from 61.197, renewal of flight instructor certificates. While this sections says "a practical test", every DE I know will ask a little about all the certificates. You can go out the next day and give CFI instruction, ball it up, and the DE may be left holding the bag.
I would talk this over with the DE before you show up. He/she may or may not have some "hints". Also, if you read 61.197 it says "...by passing a practical test as prescribed... for one of the ratings listed on the expired flight instructor certificate." Meaning you have to go through one of the practical tests you passed already. Easiest way in your situation would be to go over CFII and MEI maneuvers. Again, talk with the DE to find out how he/she wants to do this.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

Meaning you have to go through one of the practical tests you passed already.

That isn't FAA policy, even though the regs read that way. Going for a *new* rating on his FI certificate will renew them all.

[Instinct]

Thank you all for your comments. I need to get a hold of a CFI PTS to see exactly what would be required of me (which areas of operations and tasks). I have quite of bit of catching up and reviewing to do before I even start training again.

I believe the FAA has the PTS books available in PDF format on their website.

Thanks again!

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

That isn't FAA policy, even though the regs read that way. Going for a *new* rating on his FI certificate will renew them all.

Do you have the reference? Not being a wise#$%, I would like to have it if it comes up again.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

Do you have the reference? Not being a wise#$%, I would like to have it if it comes up again.

It's always a good idea to ask for a reference...keeps everyone honest.

It's stated in multiple places, but the only one I have readily available at work is the Pilot Examiners Handbook, FAAO 8710.3E, which you should be able to find on the internet. Chapter 14, section 6, paragraph D.

[I'd cut and paste it, but I have multiple virtual machines and the .pdf is on the other one and I can't cut and paste between them. PITA. Besides, it'd just say what I already said. ;-) ]

I believe the statement exists also as both an FAQ and letter of interpretation.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

It's always a good idea to ask for a reference...keeps everyone honest.

It's stated in multiple places, but the only one I have readily available at work is the Pilot Examiners Handbook, FAAO 8710.3E, which you should be able to find on the internet. Chapter 14, section 6, paragraph D.

[I'd cut and paste it, but I have multiple virtual machines and the .pdf is on the other one and I can't cut and paste between them. PITA. Besides, it'd just say what I already said. ;-) ]

I believe the statement exists also as both an FAQ and letter of interpretation.

Checked the FAQs... did not see anything on CFI renewal.
Reading the first paragraph in section 6:
"The examiner may require the applicant for renewal or reinstatement to complete all or any portion of the flight instructor practical test that the examiner deems necessary to determine the applicant's competence to hold a flight instructor certificate."
So while paragraph D does permit the CFI to renew by passing a practical test for an additional flight instructor rating, it seems that the introduction to section 6 permits the DE to test the applicant on anything dealing with the CFI, CFII and MEI. Again, I think I would talk to the DE in question and ask how he/she would conduct such a ride since there seems to be some latitude. I'd rather know up front what is expected instead of assuming and being blind sided. The last thing I would want to do during a check ride is get into a, "But the Pilot Examiner Handbook says..." argument.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

it seems that the introduction to section 6 permits the DE to test the applicant on anything dealing with the CFI, CFII and MEI.

I do not read that as you do.

I believe that this is limited to the actual flight instructor test being given. For instance, if he goes for the MEI, he cannot be tested on the -II stuff.

What I think the paragraph means is that all areas of operation in the particular PTS being used are fair game, including stuff that isn't required to be tested, such as FOI. But that's true for all add-on ratings.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I do not read that as you do.

I believe that this is limited to the actual flight instructor test being given. For instance, if he goes for the MEI, he cannot be tested on the -II stuff.

What I think the paragraph means is that all areas of operation in the particular PTS being used are fair game, including stuff that isn't required to be tested, such as FOI. But that's true for all add-on ratings.

This was NOT the interpretation of the DE when I renewed my CFI. I assumed I would only be tested on CFI material. Fortunately I showed up with all my lesson plans as he asked me to teach ME and instrument topics.
My check ride consisted of CFI and CFII maneuvers.
Paragraph 4 of chapter 14 of the DPE handbook discusses the PTS to be used and states that all PTS are fair game for original, additional, renewal and/or reinstatement.
I would go back to my last comment. Ask the DE you will fly with as it is his/her interpretation that matters, not ours.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

This was NOT the interpretation of the DE when I renewed my CFI. I assumed I would only be tested on CFI material. Fortunately I showed up with all my lesson plans as he asked me to teach ME and instrument topics. My check ride consisted of CFI and CFII maneuvers. I would go back to my last comment. Ask the DE you will fly with as it is his/her interpretation that matters, not ours.

I agree that it's always a good idea to ask the examiner what he'll be looking at. Still, I suspect his interp is aberrant. It just doesn't make sense in light of the other text in the section. If all tasks in all PTS's are available to him, what is the purpose of saying that you can go for a checkride for a new rating, or one that you already hold? In light of his interpretation, all checkrides are the same, so it doesn't matter much.

If it happened here, I'd discuss it with FSDO and see what their take on it was. If I were dissatisfied, I might call Designee Standardization in Ok City.

My view is the examiners need to be watched and they need to know that they're being watched in order to make sure they don't overstep their boundaries. I don't think they should be "ratted" on to the FAA, but friendly discussions that suggest that you're in regular communication with them might be useful.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I agree that it's always a good idea to ask the examiner what he'll be looking at. Still, I suspect his interp is aberrant. It just doesn't make sense in light of the other text in the section. If all tasks in all PTS's are available to him, what is the purpose of saying that you can go for a checkride for a new rating, or one that you already hold? In light of his interpretation, all checkrides are the same, so it doesn't matter much.

If it happened here, I'd discuss it with FSDO and see what their take on it was. If I were dissatisfied, I might call Designee Standardization in Ok City.

My view is the examiners need to be watched and they need to know that they're being watched in order to make sure they don't overstep their boundaries. I don't think they should be "ratted" on to the FAA, but friendly discussions that suggest that you're in regular communication with them might be useful.

Yes, examiners need to be watched, but the way I read the DPE Handbook the DE in question was well with in his right to ask the questions he did. Again, his reasoning was that the next day I could go out in a ME aircraft and HIS ticket would be on the line. Imagine the NTSB hearing if the day after my renewal I went out in a MEL and nosed it in while doing a VMC demo... "You renewed his MEI, put your signature in his logbook, yet you never asked him a single question about ME operations???" "Uhhh, yes sir." Lawyers would also have a field day with him.
There is a big difference between this- some one being logical, abiding by his/her interpretation of the regulations, and ensuring safe aviation operations- and some one going out into left field (some examiners at the KC and RIC FSDOs who are no longer there come to mind).

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

well with in his right to ask the questions he did.

Read the following FAQ's and legal interps and see if you still think so. They're pretty explicit about ONE checkride for ONE rating renewing them all. There is no mention anywhere of incorporating tasks from other checkrides.

<<Lawyers would also have a field day with him.>>

Skeptical. The examiner never testifies to your proficiency, he just says you met PTS standards. Any potential liability is greater if he deviates from the PTS because then he is instructing, and that's forbidden by the FAA.


Letter of interp

-----------<snip>------------


ANSWER: Ref. § 61.199(a); Yes, it is permissible for a flight instructor certificate to be reinstated on the basis of an applicant accomplishing an additional flight instructor rating practical test.

Answered by the FAA’s Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division

July 14, 2000

Ms. Kathy Minner
Technical Specialist
Aviation Services Department
Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
421 Aviation Way
Frederick, MD 21701-4798

Dear Ms. Minner:

This is in response to your letter dated February 4, 2000, to the Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), regarding section 61.199(a) (14 CFR section 61.199(a)). Specifically, you are concerned about the reinstatement of expired flight instructor certificates and ratings.

As you point out in your letter, section 61.199(a) provides, in pertinent part, that the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate may exchange that certificate for a new certificate with the same ratings by passing a practical test for one of the ratings listed on the expired flight instructor certificate. (Emphasis added)

You also point out in your letter that the General Aviation Inspector’s Handbook provides, in pertinent part, that the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate may have all ratings on the certificate reinstated by satisfactorily completing a single practical test.

You think the General Aviation Inspector’s Handbook indicates that “any” practical test for a flight instructor certificate or rating would reinstate the expired flight instructor certificate and all the ratings on it. Based on that, you don’t think that the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate is limited to taking a practical for one of the ratings listed on the expired flight instructor certificate to reinstate it as provided for under section 61.199(a). Accordingly, you ask “may a flight instructor reinstate an expired flight instructor certificate by taking any practical test for a flight instructor certificate or rating, or must it be confined to one of those listed on the expired certificate as it seems to state in the regulation.” The answer to this question is discussed below.

Section 61.199(a) applies when the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate only seeks to have that certificate reinstated with the same ratings. It has been the policy of the Flight Standard Services (AFS-800), as articulated in the General Aviation Inspector’s Handbook, to allow the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate who seeks an additional rating to one of those listed on the expired certificate, to reinstate the expired flight instructor certificate, and all the ratings on that expired certificate, by taking, and passing, a practical test for the additional rating sought. As a result, the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate may have that certificate and all of the ratings listed on it reinstated by taking, and passing, any practical test for a flight instructor certificate or rating.

I hope this satisfactorily answers your question.

Sincerely,

/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division


----------<snip>----------



FAQ's

{Q&A-387}
QUESTION: 61.199(a) states that an expired CFI may be exchanged (reinstated) by passing a practical test prescribed in 61.183(h). After reading 61.183(h) one could conclude it to mean that a practical test is required for each rating.

ANSWER: One test renews all. There was no change intended. However, FAA Order 8700.1, Vol 2, Chapter 11 is my next project to rewrite to clarify this matter

{Q&A-13}
QUESTION: For example, a person holds a flight instructor certificate with the following ratings: Airplane Multiengine, Airplane Single-engine, Glider, Rotorcraft-Helicopter, Instrument-Airplane and Helicopter. The certificate expired on July 30 ,1997. And today is September 2, 1997. Does the rule allow for satisfactory completion of one practical test to renew for all the ratings? For example, does the rule allow for completion of a Flight Instructor-Airplane Singe Engine [note absence of Instrument or multi] practical test in a Cessna 152 and a satisfactory completion of that practical test renew all the person’s flight instructor ratings?

ANSWER: Yes, completion of one practical test allows an exchange (re-instatement of) for all the person’s flight instructor ratings. Review the new § 61.199(a) which states:

(a) Flight instructor certificates. The holder of an expired flight instructor certificate may exchange that certificate for a new certificate by passing a practical test prescribed in § 61.183(h) of this part.

Read the words “. . . by passing a practical test . . .” It doesn’t say multiple practical tests, it says “. . . by passing a practical test . . .” In this case “a” means one.

However, this applies to the Flight Instructor certificate and ratings that were issued after November 1, 1975. If a person holds one of the old flight instructor certificates and ratings that was issued prior to November 1, 1975, review Order 8700.1, page 11-3, paragraph 13.
{Q&A-50}

[Blackhawk]

[quote=tgrayson;497874]Read the following FAQ's and legal interps and see if you still think so. They're pretty explicit about ONE checkride for ONE rating renewing them all. There is no mention anywhere of incorporating tasks from other checkrides.

<<Lawyers would also have a field day with him.>>

Skeptical. The examiner never testifies to your proficiency, he just says you met PTS standards. Any potential liability is greater if he deviates from the PTS because then he is instructing, and that's forbidden by the FAA.


Not true. The NTSB hearings I have attended the examiners were specifically asked about proficiency of deceased pilots. As a matter of fact, while it has been about 10 years since I attended one, I do remember this taking a greater amount of time than anything about PTS, if the PTS was even mentioned. In one case lawyers for deceased passengers were present and taking notes.
I can just about garantee that any CFI killed in an accident during instruction will have his/her estate sued. If a DE signed the CFI off without asking some basic questions about the rating involved in the accident, he/she will also be sued. We're talking about a day and age when a pilot with a gear up problem is successfully sued by the estate of pilots who have a midair 5 miles away.
Also, it could be argued that the clarrification of the QA is in regard to the flying portion- meaning some one does not have to line up a ME and SE airplane to take the practical.
The same legal arguments are made by some examiners when giving SES ratings to CFIs. There is nothing in the SES PTS about testing a CFI who is taking a checkride for a commercial SES rating; yet the CFI can go out the day after a check ride and legally give instruction in a SES. There is no such thing as limiting a CFI to SEL that I know of. Because of this many of the instructors I know who do SES ratings will train the CFIs to a higher standard than a normal applicant.
Personally, I pick my battles with DEs. There are times to draw a line in the sand and fight, and there are times to swallow my pride, back up, and pick another battle. If you want to fight a local DE on this, be my guest.
This is again why I say to talk to the DE in question. Even within the PTS there is quite a bit of latitude.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

There are times to draw a line in the sand and fight, and there are times to swallow my pride, back up, and pick another battle. If you want to fight a local DE on this, be my guest.

An examiner giving essentially three checkrides to a candidate is greatly exceeding his authority and that's a worthy thing to fight, IMO. It's the examiner's job to apply the PTS in question and that's all.

Anybody can be sued at any time for just about anything; that's no excuse for an examiner to deviate from his assigned responsibilities, because the FAA determines those.

[tgrayson]

BTW, here's an except from the FAA newsletter "Designee Update" which is sent to Pilot Examiners. This is from Volume 13, No. 3, dated July 2001:

Some examiners, based on their background experience and training, at times may feel strongly that, in the interest of aviation safety, a specific maneuver, procedure, technique and/or knowledge item, although not contained in the PTS, should nevertheless be included in their “total evaluation” of an applicant’s suitability for pilot certification. Their intentions may be laudable but, testing on items not specifically included in the appropriate PTS, and/or evaluating answers to oral questions based on reference sources other than those shown in the PTS, is inappropriate and not in keeping with the FAA’s intent of maintaining fairness to both the applicant and the recommending instructor, and objectivity in the evaluation/certification process.