IPC question

[BuickCFI]

say you go up and for some reason can't finish some part of the check (approach, holding, unusual attitudes, or circling) can you go up another day and finish or do you need to start over?

[bLizZuE]

I would say it can be cumalitive like that, but I'm not exactly sure. I don't see why not.

[TaterSalad]

Sure. There's nothing that says it has to be done in one flight. In fact, I've done IPC's before where some tasks were ok, some weren't. So we spent some time training on the unsatisfactory stuff, and then finished the IPC another day.

[BuickCFI]

thanks, i was thinking it could be done in more than 1 flight, but i wanted to make sure. gonna do my first soon

[meritflyer]

I've done IPCs over 2 weeks, flying several times including IFR cross countries. If I am gonna stick my name in your book saying you're good to go, you're gonna prove.. your good to go.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

I've done IPCs over 2 weeks, flying several times including IFR cross countries. If I am gonna stick my name in your book saying you're good to go, you're gonna prove.. your good to go.

do you need to note everything done or just IPC-Sat?

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

do you need to note everything done or just IPC-Sat?

I make notes in their "Notes" section or type up a small piece of paper saying what we did. Personally, I dont think you can NOT cover your butt enough especially during an IPC.

Protect yourself. It only takes a few minutes.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

I make notes in their "Notes" section or type up a small piece of paper saying what we did. Personally, I dont think you can NOT cover your butt enough especially during an IPC.

Protect yourself. It only takes a few minutes.

what i figured. usually i over-endorse/comment unless it is a BFR in which case i just write BFR-Sat (what I was taught in school). unless that is the wrong procedure as well? i have done 2 BFR's now, but never had one done for myself

[meritflyer]

Not saying it was wrong but once you endorse a BFR/IFR, you've now attested to the student's ability. I make very detailed records. For instance, I record the maneuvers, ground lecture, landings, and make notes along the way. If, just IF, there was ever an accident, I want the proof that I gave a thorough and adequate review. Keep in mind the FAA doesn't provide "guidance" for a BFR so its up to you to provide adequate "evidence" of review AKA a detailed record in the event of an accident.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Not saying it was wrong but once you endorse a BFR/IFR, you've now attested to the student's ability. I make very detailed records. For instance, I record the maneuvers, ground lecture, landings, and make notes along the way. If, just IF, there was ever an accident, I want the proof that I gave a thorough and adequate review. Keep in mind the FAA doesn't provide "guidance" for a BFR so its up to you to provide adequate "evidence" of review AKA a detailed record in the event of an accident.

i was actually taught just the opposite. in case there in an accident say doing short field landings, they could come back to you saying you signed them off as "good to go"

stuff for me to contemplate then

[meritflyer]

No documentation equates to no proof. If I did an BFR for you and you held a PPL, I'd use the PPL PTS. I would then note all the maneuvers and then have you sign a copy of my personal log (not logbook) saying we did them and attest to them being PTS and you had no concerns. This way I have proof that you did the maneuvers and you attested to what I signed you off for.

If I have no proof, then its hearsay. My word against everyone elses. No record to me sounds like trouble.

This was brought to my attention by the LAS FSDO when I took my initial. I was informed by my inspector that there have been "issues" when no log is created for proficiency and detail.

Do what works best for you. I'll be keeping my logs.

[MidlifeFlyer]

It can be a tough call. There's a theory that if you miss something in the record and that's the thing that's involved in the accident, you're screwed. So I guess one could say that badly kept records are worse than none at all.

But, personally, I'm with meritflyer on this one. Keeping decent records can not not only help with the particular event in question, but good recordkeeping can help with painting an overall picture of a professional who gives attention to detail.

(Besides, what is the last real FAA enforcement action or lawsuit you've read about against a CFI for giving a bad IPC or FR? I haven't read my first one yet.)

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

(Besides, what is the last real FAA enforcement action or lawsuit you've read about against a CFI for giving a bad IPC or FR? I haven't read my first one yet.)

Murphy's Law.

[BuickCFI]

well the 2 BFR's i have done i won't be changing anything (obviously) but the next one i do you can be sure i will log everything and then put it in my records as well. i like the idea of having them sign something in my permanent record even if it isn't required. i only have about 50 dual given now(in the last 6 weeks too!)

It can be a tough call. There's a theory that if you miss something in the record and that's the thing that's involved in the accident, you're screwed. So I guess one could say that badly kept records are worse than none at all.

i think this is the reason they said not to log anything additional. this came from a "gold seal" instructor

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

"gold seal" instructor

Gold Seal doesnt mean crap.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

i think this is the reason they said not to log anything additional. this came from a "gold seal" instructor

This is why for "events" like IPCs, BFRs, checkouts etc. I just put "XXX satisfactory" and whatever endorsements were needed of course. Then, in the event that anything were to come of it (not that I lost a lot of sleep over it) I'd be able to say "I don't recollect the specific pilot in question, since I fly with a lot of different pilots, but I'm sure I conducted the XXX in accordance with the appropriate regulations and guidance as I always do" and leave them to find something to hang me with as opposed to me providing the evidence.

In the end I don't think it makes a lot of difference - midlifeflyer has done a lot of research on the issue of CFI liability and he's always seemed to be of the opinion that with the exception of a solo student, if you're not in the plane your liability/culpability in the event of an incident is minimal.

My example - I picked up a student from a CFI who left the FBO. He was ready for his solo cross-country and in fact was endorsed for them (leaving aside a small paperwork snafu). So I said we'd do a short dual cross-country and then I'd be happy to work with him to get hs solo cross-countries completed. He got lost on the way out and on the way back (and hell I could see the destination airports as we passed pattern altitude on both legs, so it wasn't a difficult problem). So I said I wasn't comfortable, we needed to do some more work and he agreed. The next weekend he went to the airport to do some local solo work, but the FBO owner says "you're ready for your cross-countries, plan one and I'll sign you off". Well long story a little shorter, on the third attempt at the destination he went in the ditch, he was OK but the plane was a write-off. I was the last flight signature in his logbook - I never heard from the FSDO. His previous instructor who as pretty much ALL the other flights in his logbook never heard from the FSDO, and with the exception of commiserating about the loss of the C172 I'm not sure the FBO owner ever heard anything either. One small data point.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by CFIse

I'm sure I conducted the XXX in accordance with the appropriate regulations and guidance as I always do" and leave them to find something to hang me with as opposed to me providing the evidence.

If there was an accident, do you think they'd just take your word for it and drop it? I doubt it.

Also, where do you find FAA guidance for BFRs?

[TaterSalad]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

If there was an accident, do you think they'd just take your word for it and drop it? I doubt it.

Also, where do you find FAA guidance for BFRs?

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/m...ght_review.pdf

[TaterSalad]

And, I've always used the following form when conducting flight reviews: http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/cb2f6b39028b7146862569dc00721f42/$FILE/Appx1-4.pdf

There are actually 3 different sample plans there, the 1st one is for the flight review. I've always had the pilot sign it, I sign it, and it goes in their folder at the flight school.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

If there was an accident, do you think they'd just take your word for it and drop it? I doubt it.

I don't know if they'd drop it, but they'd have to go and dig somewhere else to find EVIDENCE that I did not perform my duties as an authorized instructor. I wouldn't have given them a laundry list of things they could then nit-pick to death.

I'm not sure it makes a difference one way or another how you handle this - I described my way, but to each their own.

Also, where do you find FAA guidance for BFRs?

A few things called Advisory Circulars - to quote just one source.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

If there was an accident, do you think they'd just take your word for it and drop it? I doubt it.

Also, where do you find FAA guidance for BFRs?

This is just a personal account, and doesn't by any means prove what the FAA will or won't do, so take it for what it's worth...

Way back when I was getting my airplane add-on, I had an engine failure on a solo cross country. I put it down in a small field and the wings were damaged by some small tress.

I did all the required reports, NTSB stuff, etc.

No one ever checked my logbook for endorsements. No one ever checked my instructor's records. In fact, no one aside from the NTSB ever talked to me, and no one at all talked to my instructor. I guess the FAA picks and choses what they get involved with.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by CFIse

"I don't recollect the specific pilot in question,

I'm not sure how good a response that would be to the hearing after the pilot was injured diverting to an airport with a 1200' runway due to weather, "I was having some problems with short field landings and he said, 'Don't worry about it; you'll probably never go into one anyway.'"

My personal opinion that the risks are minimal doesn't have anything to do with my decision to take an extra minute or 2 to make a record of what we covered. My personal risk analysis tells me that extra 60-120 seconds is worth it.

I also have a slightly different view of

leave them to find something to hang me with as opposed to me providing the evidence.

I don't cover every conceivable thing in every flight review. I cover enough to satisfy me that the pilot did "demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate." If I was wrong, and wrong enough to make a difference, well, for better or worse, that's a responsibility I took on when I became a CFI.

I'd much rather they "hung me" for something my records showed I didn't cover - be called on to justify my decision to cover something or not - than for something I know I did but couldn't show it.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

I'm not sure how good a response that would be to the hearing after the pilot was injured diverting to an airport with a 1200' runway due to weather, "I was having some problems with short field landings and he said, 'Don't worry about it; you'll probably never go into one anyway.'"

Yeh, but what if it's true. When I was instructing full time, 6 days a week, I flew with a LOT of people and I'm here to tell you I probably couldn't pick well over 50% of them out of a line-up. The people who "walked in" for a Flight Review - unless they did something stunningly stupid that I could use to get other CFIs to buy me beer, I really didn't remember them.

Sure - if I flew with them Tuesday and they crash on Wednesday it's going to be a pretty weak defense.

I was deposed once for a lawsuit (not aviation) and most of my answers were "I don't recall". I'm sure they thought I was lieing or I was an idiot, but it was 2 years ago and I can't remember what happened last week.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by CFIse

Yeh, but what if it's true.

What does that have to do with it?

You have 2 sides. One is a poor injured schmuck who says his CFI didn't cover something and didn't seem to care. The other is a supposed professional who says he can't remember the schmuck, keeps no records, but claims he always does it right.

Forget CFI. Make it a doctor, a lawyer, a home improvement contractor, anyone who provides a service for a fee. All other things being equal, I have no problem buying the schmuck's story, true or not.