Dealing with a timid/young student

[jrh]

Hey folks,

I need some advice on how to proceed with a primary student of mine who is a bit unusual...does fine in some areas of training, but is painfully timid in other areas. This is long, but I'll give some background on how things have gone so far.

He is 16 years old, turning 17 in June. He has no interest in flying professionally, but wants to do it for fun...take friends for rides, etc.

For his first few lessons, he seemed nervous/anxious/uncomfortable in the plane. He'd overcontrol all the time, had a hard time with directional control/pitch control during takeoff (even after several lessons), he would have a death grip with both hands on the yoke, etc. On the second or third lesson I started trying to get him to keep his right hand on the throttle during takeoff and he said, "Uhhhh....I REALLY don't feel comfortable with that..." and he'd "have" to put both hands back on the yoke. I said, "Ok, I can control the throttle for now then," and let it go. I figured with more time in the air he would get more comfortable with flying...which he has...to a point.

As we continued with training, he got somewhat smoother and more relaxed. For his third or fourth flight we just made it a joyride, circling his house and seeing the sights, which he did fine with.

However, he still struggled with basic maneuvers. He didn't like the feeling of having the nose so high in the air during slow flight. He didn't like the sinking feeling during power-off stall recoveries, although after a few times of practice he got so that he could tolerate them. He can't stand power-on stalls because of the nose being so high.

I haven't practiced power-on stalls with him much because we'll do one on a flight and he'll say, "I REALLY don't like those...how about we do something else now?" Knowing that he's so scared of them, I haven't pushed him very hard to continue practicing them because I don't think he would learn much and might only make things worse.

He doesn't seem very interested in doing takeoffs and landings, either. Takeoffs aren't too bad now, but his patterns and landings are all over the place. With his traffic patterns, I've talked to him about them on the ground and drawn out on a piece of paper what to do at every point in the pattern, but it hasn't helped much. With his landings, he has a strong tendency to give up when close to the ground. On short final he'll say, "Here, you've got the controls," and dump it to me. I'll say, "Ok, I'm helping you, but keep flying, I'm only helping you."

I've talked to him about this, how I don't want to pressure him into something that really terrifies him, but at the same time, the only way to learn is to step out of his comfort zone at times. He agrees with me and says he sees what I'm talking about while we're on the ground, but then in the plane, nothing changes.

Because of all this, most of our lessons end up being fairly short--about 35 or 40 minutes from startup to shutdown. It seems that there is always something that comes up that is supposedly a reason to cut the flight short...in his mind, it's too windy (I don't think it is), it's too bumpy (not really), or he just loses focus. On a day when I planned to stay in the pattern for our first lesson of nothing but touch and goes, we did 3 or 4 and he sort of impatiently said, "How many more of these do you want to do?" I told him I was planning on 5 or 6 more, but we could call it a day early if he was getting worn out, so he just said, "Yeah, let's head in." Other times, we've done a few maneuvers for half an hour, then I was planning to return to the airport for takeoffs and landings, but after landing he tells me, "We've got a lot done today, let's stop here."

Ok, that's how about his first ten or twelve lessons went.

Because of weather, my schedule, and some maintenance on the plane, we only got to fly a couple times in the past month and a half. Yesterday I went up with him and the plan was to run through one of every maneuver to refresh him on everything and see how he could do. As we leveled at 3500 feet, he said, "Ahhh...can you here that ticking? It's driving me nuts. It's giving me a headache."

I couldn't hear anything, but I figured it was the strobes or beacon or radio or something in his headset, so we played around with everything, but couldn't get it to stop. He said he couldn't concentrate enough to keep flying, so we turned around and went home.

Today I did a flight with him again and had the same plan. Again, he heard the ticking that was supposedly bothering him. He said we should do steep turns and emergency procedures and call it a day, so that's what we did. As we taxied in after landing, I noticed the extremely faint ticking as well and we figured out it was coming from the transponder. But it was *very* faint...so faint I could only hear it with the engine at idle. I don't see how it could truly bother him that much.

The funny thing is, he acts like everything is ok on the ground. He's anxious to schedule lessons, if I tell him to watch a particular part of his Sporty's DVD course he will, he's asked me what it takes to solo, he talks about the things he'll do after he gets his license, etc. But when it comes to the actual flying, he has a very hard time and doesn't seem to be enjoying it much. I thought he would get more comfortable with time, but I just don't see it happening.

I've been pretty blunt with him...asked him if there's anything I could do better as an instructor, asked him if flight training is any better/worse/harder/easier than he thought it would be, those types of questions, and he always gives me generally positive answers. I'm doing fine as a teacher, he likes flying, etc.

So what's this guy's deal? How should I handle him in the future? I don't think we're anywhere close to having the "you're not cut out to be a pilot talk" yet, but at the same time, I have no idea how to get him more comfortable and able to handle things in the plane better.

Sorry for such an incredibly long post. I've just never dealt with anything similar to this before. What do you think?

[adreamer]

This is what I would do. I would find out who has been paying his flight lessons? I would talk to whoever pays lessons directly without your student presence. He or she needs to know what kind of progress he is. Second, he is still young. Therefore, I would get his parents involve in his training. One of my current students is about the same age. I do tel her parents about what we did that day...etc. I would ask this question - "How bad do you want to get your license?"


just my 0.02

[desertdog71]

I know how to fix the hand off the throttle part. (evil laugh)

Thats a tough one, I will be interested to hear what people have to say.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by jrh

What do you think?

Your student may be one of those who is in love with the idea of flying, but doesn't like the reality very much.

Being somewhat fearful with such little time in the airplane is understandable, but for the student to have no interest in mastering his fear is not. Most students are eager to work on landings, because they won't feel like a real pilot until they can land the airplane.

I'd guess your guy doesn't really want to fly, he just thinks he does. He may not be ready to admit that yet, either to you or himself.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Your student may be one of those who is in love with the idea of flying, but doesn't like the reality very much.

...

I'd guess your guy doesn't really want to fly, he just thinks he does. He may not be ready to admit that yet, either to you or himself.

I've had the exact same thoughts.

The question is, if he's not going to admit it, what should I do? Keep doing 30 minute, unproductive flights until he gives in? Talk to his parents? They're the ones footing the bill and asked me to let them know if he wasn't studying enough. In my opinion, his study habits are fine, it's his flying I'm more concerned about...an unusual problem to have, but I'm sure his parents would care about it.

I think I'll at least let his parents know what's going on and see how they react, but I'm open to other ideas.

[Van_Hoolio]

When the students don't protect the throttle, I've been known to chop it to idle on the takeoff roll or right after rotation. Denny Dumb Passenger: "Hey, what's this do?"

[jrh]

Originally Posted by Van_Hoolio

When the students don't protect the throttle, I've been known to chop it to idle on the takeoff roll or right after rotation. Denny Dumb Passenger: "Hey, what's this do?"

Haha...I've never needed to do this. I think my students get in the habit of guarding the throttle because of pure annoyance. If they don't leave their hand up there, I *will* remind them *every* single time. Before long they get sick of hearing me tell them.

But then again, this particular student has bigger problems to deal with...

[MSNFlyer]

This student has no real intention of becoming a pilot at this point. All he is doing is wasting your time and his (and someone's money as well). I would sit down with him and spell out the training and some options.

#1 He really gets serious, listens to you and follows your instruction

#2 He stops flying for now until he is old enough to really know what he wants

or

#3 You tell him that you can continue to simply take him up flying without doing manuevers and really learning--scenic flights like the one you did. He won't get anything out of it but he can say that he is going flying.

After that discussion stick to what he chooses. It sounds like you have let him take too much control of what is happening in the air. You are the instructor and you should be controlling what is going on in the air. If you feel he needs to work on his power on stalls, that is what you should do that lesson. Don't get me wrong--I am not some absolute dictator in the sky but it is important for my students to know what we are doing that day and I tell them, they don't tell me. I have one student who only want to go out and do touch and goes and every lesson. I have to sit him down and explain that we need to learn how to control the airplane and fly it correctly before practicing landings. He didn't like it in the beginning but once he understood the learning process he really dove into the manuevers and now is almost at solo (I am flying with him this morning and yes, we are working on landings now).

I also agree with finding out who is paying the bills. You might find out the source of the desire to fly right there. I had a young student last year who was also very, very timid in the air--huge amounts of resignation. I was still a fairly new CFI and didn't recognize how bad it was so I signed him off for the checkride which he failed. He passed the second time but when I met his father I realised it was his father's dream for him and not his true passion. He is getting older and more sure of himself now and is a fine pilot but without that parental input I don't think he would have pursued it.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by MSNFlyer

It sounds like you have let him take too much control of what is happening in the air. You are the instructor and you should be controlling what is going on in the air. If you feel he needs to work on his power on stalls, that is what you should do that lesson. Don't get me wrong--I am not some absolute dictator in the sky but it is important for my students to know what we are doing that day and I tell them, they don't tell me.

I see what you're saying, but let me explain my logic, for any CFIs lurking out there who want to silently learn from this thread.

I've had a plan and a syllabus from Day 1 of training. I've made it clear what steps are necessary to make progress. And for the most part, we've stuck too it.

The problem comes when he just can't handle something. I've learned that if a student is really scared of something, there is no point in pushing them to do more. I might have them do a "tamer" version of something, like, say, power-on stalls at 2000 rpm instead of full power...but pressuring them to keep doing what they're scared of simply doesn't work.

Once a student mentally shuts down, there is no use in continuing the lesson. It's a waste of time and money. That's what would have happened if I had tried to make him keep doing touch and goes on that day when he wanted to quit after doing 4. His mind was no longer in it, so what's the point? He wouldn't have made any progress, and chances are good he would have gotten very frustrated with me in the process.

Also, the thing is, it's not like he's missing building blocks, like in the case of your student wanting to only do landings, and it's not like my student is really good at everything except, say, stalls, and wants to do everything he is good at, while avoiding stalls. The fact is, he needs work on just about everything. My goal is to do whatever it takes to make some sort of progress on each lesson. If him dictating what he wants to practice is what it takes for him to be interested in the lesson, I'm ok with that, to a point.

My students employ me to provide a service/product. This is my way of providing that.

Originally Posted by MSNFlyer

I also agree with finding out who is paying the bills. You might find out the source of the desire to fly right there.

Actually, I know who is paying the bills (his parents), and I know for a fact there is no pressure coming from them. If anything, they'd rather not put the money into it. But they know he's interested in flying and wanted to give him the opportunity to do something outside of school that he's interested in.

[Ian J]

Sounds to me like you are doing everything right. Excellent work not pushing him where he is uncomfortable. My first thought about his age and timidness is that he has some growing up to do, so send him over to Army ROTC and I'll square him away. But seriously, after you explain to him/parents that his slow progress will make it much more expensive and time consuming to earn the certificate, and if after that he/they still wants to continue, well, unless your schedule is jam packed with more serious students, why not just fly him when he wants? It might go no where, but if he wants to after you have been upfront and honest with him, it certainly won't hurt you any to fly more and earn more money.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by jrh

I think I'll at least let his parents know what's going on and see how they react, but I'm open to other ideas.

I think it's a good idea. That would give them time to adjust to the idea if your student decides that flying is not for him.

I'd suggest that the lessons continue; if you stopped training him before he was ready to give up the idea, he either might quit and blame it on you or continue with another instructor.

It's always possible, too, that something might change his attitude. Still, the people that I've seen who never were able to get their PPL were the ones who were overly fearful early on. You just can't learn in that emotional state.

[DE727UPS]

"Talk to his parents?"

I think you should. Flying is pretty serious stuff and not every 16 year old should be doing it. The way I see it from what you said, he's not ready to be doing this. You need to tell him that he MUST be willing to do certain things in the airplane to be a safe pilot. If he can't, he has no business wasting his parents money.

[MSNFlyer]

I agree, there is no point to pushing a student to do things they aren't ready for. As long as you point out this is what they have to do eventually--which you are doing--you are doing your job. The mere fact that you seek advice here is a sign of someone who wants to make a good pilot, not just run people through the training to get hours or money.

Glad to hear the pressure to fly isn't there from outside sources. I also think your discussion with the parents about the realistic expectations will be good for all involved.

Have you tried taking this student up in the backseat with you and another student up front? As long as all parties agree I have found this is a good way for students to learn. I have tried it a few times with my advanced students or with other CFIs in front. Every time the student in the back has come away with something. It is great for them to watch and feel everything that is happening. It isn't for everyone but something I have found that works. If your student really loves to fly he won't mind being in the back

I have a student who I flew with today who was very nervous about power on stalls. I slowly transitioned him like this--first some slow flight, then a few power off stalls (him on the controls) then a power on (me on the controls) then another couple (both of us on the controls) and then another (him on the controls). That transition of control slowly to him allowed him to be comfortable (even in the incipient spin we went into). He was grinning from ear to ear all the way back to the airport. It sounds like that may be a bit much for this student but if you can get to that point it may click for him and become more fun.

Good luck!

[cre8flyer]

A couple of ideas:

1. During the debrief of your next flight, compare his actual performance on maneuvers to PTS standards. Do this to evaluate his level of interest in really achieving PTS standards.

2. Go do some spins with him. Show him that the airplane is safe. After I did spins I lost all my fear of 30 degrees of bank during slow flight.

3. Find an opportunity to talk with him away from the airport / out of the environment of flying/groundschool, etc. Give him the exercise to imagine he is 82 years old, sitting on the patio of his retirement home, talking to his grandkids, who want to know about his life. What are the things he wants to be able to tell his grandkids? If there's nothing about flying in there, it means he probably doesn't really want to fly. If it is all about flying, make it clear to him tha cockpits are not the most ergonomically designed environments. Maneuvers are not always comfortable to perform. etc. etc., but they must be done in order to demonstrate progress and pass stage checks.

Good luck!!

[Andrew_VT]

Hmm, a timid 16 year old...how to fix that.

It involves a 5th of rum (rum+coke in increasing strength) then the kid needs to get laid.

(now I can go back and read the rest of the post)

[jrh]

Hey folks,

Thanks for all the input. I think I've formulated a good plan for how to deal with this student.

Somebody with teaching experience PM'd me because he didn't want to post publicly. I thought he had some very good points. He gave me permission to share his message publicly. Here it is, followed by my response:

I disagree with the issue of talking to his parents - yet. In their eyes, he's a sweet, talented, good kid, and if you bring this to them you're going to be treading a fine line between accusing their son of being a 'ninny' and they'll say, 'you're the teacher. TEACH HIM.'

There is a way to avoid this.

I believe he is fearful because he doesn't totally trust you, the aircraft and what he's learning. If it were my student, I would have a heart to heart with him - a real talk. Tell him that you KNOW he's fearful, you KNOW he's using avoidance tactics, and you KNOW he's uncomfortable in the air. He needs to verbalize what's going on in his head, what he's afraid of, and he needs to trust you that he's going to learn to do it like you do. That he's going to be as good a pilot as you are.

I also don't think he trusts himself, either. Lots of positive reinforcement will help. People tend to excel where their passions are. If you really open up the dialogue and he still practices avoidance, if he shrugs a lot and can't give you a definitive answer, then you might want to talk to his folks, but not before you give him a chance to pull a 180 here and get motivated and do the things that he's afraid of.

One other piece of advice: ask him open-ended questions - don't ask him anything he can answer with a yes or no. Instead of "you don't like stalls, do you?" a question like, "What is it about stalls that worries you?" Coax him to talk about his fears, get them out in the open, and then you can knock them down one by one.

I've had to do similar things with teenaged kids when I've taught some other things.

He needs faith, which will stem from desire and confidence. Need to figure out what's obstructing that.

I hope this helps. If you're rolling your eyes, I apologize...like I said, I'm not a CFI, but I do know a little bit about coaching people with some fear.

And my response:

I'm not rolling my eyes at all. I appreciate the message, and I think you have a very good point about talking to him before going to his parents.

I've talked to him quite a bit in the past with open-ended questions, but it's always been indirectly trying to figure out what is going on in his head. I've asked him what he thinks of flying, what he thought of the lesson we just did, what his friends think of him flying, etc., but I've never straight up told him, "I know you're not comfortable in the plane." I guess I've wanted him to say it first, but that probably won't happen unless I bring it up in a very direct way. He needs to know it's very difficult to teach, too, if I don't have any feedback from him about what he's worried about or what's going through his head.

I can also see what you're saying about him not totally trusting himself. I see it evidenced in his nervousness when landing. I don't think he trusts himself not to biff it on landing, even with me sitting next to him.

My full time job outside of flight instructing happens to be working at this guy's high school, and one of the teachers at the school happens to be a private pilot. I talked to this teacher to find out what he knew about this mutual student of ours. He mentioned that the student is a good kid, but has a tendency to "bluff" knowledge on various topics. The kid will act like an expert on whatever is being discussed, whether he has any clue or not. When called out on it, the kid doesn't really get upset...he just corrects whatever little bit of knowledge he got called out on and goes back to acting like an expert on the same topic.

That sort of defense mechanism/behavior is pretty harmless to the average teenager, but when it comes to flying, where one *has* to demonstrate proficiency, it's a whole different game. I wouldn't be surprised if my student is upset he can't bluff his way through this one.

My next lesson is on Monday morning with this guy, so I think I'll have this conversation you suggested with him before we fly Monday. Hopefully it goes well.

[BuickCFI]

i have a 17 year old student as well. hoping to initial solo him this week (my first) he was just like what you are describing until a few flights ago and still is a little. he is up to 15 or so hours now and everything is beginning to click. on the ground he is perfect but in the airplane he is quite timid. today we were doing short approaches and 2 times in a row we would have landing in the grass or stalled out because he was not going to initiate a go-around. he asked me if he should to which i responded "i don't know are you going to make the runway" he said "no". so i asked "what should you be doing now since we are 100ft above the ground and 1000ft short?" he says i guess "go around"

he is getting better but not quite as quickly as someone who is older would progress, he loves flying and has been ignoring his schoolwork because of it, but in the plane it is like his mind goes out the window.

now your student:
sounds like they want to fly, but are just scared to death of it. schedule a meeting with the parents and the student and talk it over. talk over how serious aviation is, find out what his goals are, if he truly still wants to fly and become a pilot, have a fun flight with him, maybe go somewhere close and grab a bite to eat. tell him, see this is what real aviation is, but the manuevers, etc are a necessary evil because they illustrate real world situations. power on stall = takeoff, power off stall = landing, slow flight = just before touchdown, etc.

[skydriverdc6]

Ok, so I've been reading all this info about the young student. Now I have a student who is nearly 40 yrs old. In the 10 hours I've flown withhim, he has ran me off the taxiway (my fault for not paying attention), pulled the mixture on downwind, dumped the flaps on go-around, etc etc. I know it sounds like I'm a horrible instructor, but we have gone over and over this stuff. He has a death grip on the controls when we are on final. He currently has about 10 hours. His final approaches remind me of the scene from Top Gun where the guy is all scared and inbound for the carrier landing and his wings are rocking up and down the whole way down, thats what it feels like with this guy. He will comment that "it seems windy" but when I take over its smooth as glass. So Im sure he is overcontrolling.

Any advice on the cure for overcontrolling the airplane? (other than beating the student in the head with a ruler)

[jrh]

Sometimes middle-aged students can be even harder to deal with than young students. The middle-aged students have more habits and are more set in their ways, be it good or bad, than young students. Usually it's been a long time since they've been in school so their minds have a harder time absorbing information.

To help with the death grip, you might try demonstrating how the plane can still be controlled easily using nothing but a thumb and index finger. Heck, a lot of the time, you don't even need your hand on the yoke. Show him the plane isn't going to fall out of the sky if you let go. Then have him practice flying with just a couple fingers. It doesn't need to be anything complicated...just gentle turns, climbs, descents, and straight and level using two fingers.

You also might try using the analogy of something he is familiar with in order to get across the point that it takes gentle inputs to control the plane. Does he golf? Just like how a good golfer has a smooth, precise stroke, and doesn't attack the ball "Happy Gilmore"-style, a good pilot develops a smooth, steady touch. Find an activity outside of flying he can relate to.

Another thing you might try is having him lightly hold on to the controls while you fly some maneuvers so he can focus on just how much or how little his hands should move without having to worry about controlling the plane. I did this once with a student who kept jerking the yoke back and forth quickly on final approach. I flew two approaches with her hands resting on the yoke--one approach that was smooth and correct, then another where I simulated what she had been doing. She was able to see exactly what I'd been talking about and her patterns became much better in that one flight.

Also, going back to what I said about middle-aged students, take it slow. Make sure he understands and is comfortable with very basic controls before moving on to more advanced maneuvers. I know a very competent 50+ year old private pilot who took 100+ hours to get his private license. There's nothing wrong with him...it just took him about twice as long as the average student to master each segment of training. He just needed some extra time to absorb all the necessary information.

[Monty]

Originally Posted by skydriverdc6

His final approaches remind me of the scene from Top Gun where the guy is all scared and inbound for the carrier landing and his wings are rocking up and down the whole way down, thats what it feels like with this guy.

"Cougar you're well below glide path....3/4 of a mile....call the ball!!"

[SpiraMirabilis]

Only let him fly with two fingers, if he can't keep it straight and level have him trim it out until he can.