"Spoon Feeding and Adjusting"

[desertdog71]

I will start this thread with the fact that these statements are of my personal opinion. Please do not read anything into this.

I have been reading some threads about flight training. Academy vs college vs FBO, you know the usual debate. The most disturbing thing I have seen, and its been repeated several times, is the whole "its not the schools responsibility to spoon feed or adjust to you"

Are you kidding me with these statements? It is EXACTLY the schools job and responsibility to "spoon feed" and "adjust" to you as a student. I find this attitude just plain arrogant.

Remember students, you are always the customer. These places should be doing everything they can to adjust to your needs. Not treat it like a Gestapo training camp. I guess some places have just gotten so big that customer service no longer means anything to them.

Do your research and choose carefully when looking at places to train. Ask tough questions and talk to students both current and prior. This is a huge investment of time and money. Its also really hard work, and if the environment doesn't meet your needs it only makes things more difficult. You are paying these places to TEACH, so expect them to TEACH.

The quality of instruction is ALWAYS the most important aspect of your training. You really need to interview the CFI's and management before making a selection. The school is trying to get your business and money. Make them earn it.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

It is EXACTLY the schools job and responsibility to "spoon feed" and "adjust" to you as a student. I find this attitude just plain arrogant

I cannot imagine a statement regarding instruction with which I disagree more.

While in principle you may argue that a customer should get whatever he wants, the fact is, the customer, in this situation, cannot get what he wants without investing a great deal of effort.

No instructor, no team of instructors, no school can spoon feed a student at the rate and level of intensity necessary to achieve a real mastery of the material. Even if they could, they would have done the student a real disservice by not teaching him how to learn. This is a case of giving the customer what he needs, not what he wants.

Anyone who expects to be spoon fed has some growing up to do, regardless of his age.

[killbilly]

Methinks interpretation is being taken to extremes - I've seen different definitions of spoon feeding over the years...

I think what DD is saying is that not all students fit the same mold, and they need to find instruction which is willing to work with them for their particular learning styles and needs, based on what they want to do with their training.

Do your research and choose carefully when looking at places to train. Ask tough questions and talk to students both current and prior. This is a huge investment of time and money. Its also really hard work, and if the environment doesn't meet your needs it only makes things more difficult. You are paying these places to TEACH, so expect them to TEACH.

The above is the most important part of what he said.

[BobDDuck]

Spoon feeding gets pilots killed. End of story.

If one learns to fly by having ever answer handed to them they won't know where to go to find stuff. From day 1 I always pushed my students to find stuff themselves. Granted, I was teaching in a fast track pilot mill and that was sort of expected, but even if I hadn't I would have done it the same way. A student needs to be able to be 100% competent on their own when the 8710 is signed.

I don't mean that a CFI shouldn't teach. They should most defiantly do that, and if that is what you meant, then yes, you are correct. But to me teaching is much more about shaping a students way of acquiring knowledge rather then actually giving them the knowledge.

And if someone wants to make it to the 121 (and I assume 135) world that is the way thy are going to have to learn. In my 2 weeks of indoc and 2 weeks of systems I didn't have anything taught to me. The time was "This is where you will find this. Moving on...."

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

Are you kidding me with these statements? It is EXACTLY the schools job and responsibility to "spoon feed" and "adjust" to you as a student. I find this attitude just plain arrogant.

You are right that a student needs spoon feeding in the beginning. It is as necessary as spoon feeding a baby. Gestapo methods will not work.

However, the baby must grow up - that is the ultimate responsibility of any parent with a child as it is an instructor with a student pilot.

That still does not require Gestapo methods, but spoon feeding must gradually be weaned to a point where the student has become fully responsible for self.

Spoon feeding, or "pleasing the customer" creates pilots who think that others can be held responsible for their actions, and ultimately cannot maintain control in stressful situations.

It's a very fine line, and is the main difference between "proffesional" instruction, and "Walmart" instruction.

Students, like children, are not aware of the possible dangers of the flying environment, and it is the instructor's responsibility to put them into "simulated" environments which may test their emotional response.

If a person expects to be catered to, he may be a danger to himself and others in our environment.

Again, Gestapo, or military methods are not necessary to achieve this training. If that is what you are really talking about, I agree. But I/we have seen too many "students" who want to be taken care of and treated like "customers".

I cannot do my job, if I think of you as my boss.

I treat you like a guy who wants to learn how to take care of himself in the worst most possible scenario that I can think of. In the Air.

[desertdog71]

Perhaps what I am reading into the "Spoon Feeding" comments is incorerect. The perception I am getting is that if the student can't hang with the particular mold or method of that school, well then they should just go somewhere else.

Telling someone to go read the books isn't teaching. There is a lot of abstract and technical areas that require more explanation. Again maybe this is just my perception from what I have been reading. I get the impression that if a student requires extra attention to get through something, then they are being told to go away.

Reality is that there will be some students that require much more attention than others. We can't simply blow these people off because its a little more difficult or time consuming or it cuts into the bottom line.

Now of course students should be expected to self study and be taught how to use the tools around them to get information. However when a student asks a question about something, the answer can't always be "look it up" or "Go read"

If the student just isn't comprehending the material then we have failed as an instructor. Not the other way around.

Now if what is called "spoon feeding" is something else all together, I apologize for the rant.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

Now of course students should be expected to self study and be taught how to use the tools around them to get information. However when a student asks a question about something, the answer can't always be "look it up" or "Go read"

If the student just isn't comprehending the material then we have failed as an instructor. Not the other way around.

Agreed.

Here's spoon feeding:

I had a student not long ago who refused to memorize the prep material that I had provided him prior to an instrument checkride. Things like "what requirements must be met before you can descend below MDA/DA". We had gone over it a number of times and I had explained in great, glorious detail, but he couldn't remember the stuff.

When I was quizzing him and he couldn't cough up the answers, he had a temper tantrum and told me it was my job to repeat the material enough times until he remembered it, because that's what he was paying for.

I was able to make him see the light, but I expect that his attitude isn't unique, even when not expressed so explicitly.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Agreed.

Here's spoon feeding:

I had a student not long ago who refused to memorize the prep material that I had provided him prior to an instrument checkride. Things like "what requirements must be met before you can descend below MDA/DA". We had gone over it a number of times and I had explained in great, glorious detail, but he couldn't remember the stuff.

When I was quizzing him and he couldn't cough up the answers, he had a temper tantrum and told me it was my job to repeat the material enough times until he remembered it, because that's what he was paying for.

I was able to make him see the light, but I expect that his attitude isn't unique, even when not expressed so explicitly.

Not what I thought people meant by spoon feeding at all. Again just an impression I got from some other threads on here. I was seeing it more like this.

Student comes in for a lesson.
Student: Here for my lesson
Instructor: Good, did you read that material I assigned you?
Student: Yes, but I have some questions
Instructor: Well, you read the material right?
Student: Yes
Instructor: Well you shouldn't have any questions, its all right there. I don't have time to "spoon feed" everything to you. You have to study this on your own, that is what the books are for.

Sure it looks ridiculous, but this is how things have been portrayed by some individuals. Now the truth is somewhere in the middle as always. My real point to this is that people really need to do their research when selecting a place to train.

The Part 121/135 example that BobDDuck used is a good example though. IF it is your intent to move into a part 121/135 environment, you really need to be self motivated and sharp. you will need to understand things quickly and retain that information or you will bounce right out of training. Which would suck big time since you worked so hard to get the interview, and the job in the first place.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

Well you shouldn't have any questions, its all right there. I don't have time to "spoon feed" everything to you. You have to study this on your own, that is what the books are for.

I certainly don't view that as spoon feeding, and I suspect the instructor didn't as well. It's a control technique: I blame you for your inadequacies in order to reduce your demands on me.

[Champcar]

I agree with van on this one as a student. With the amount of money i'm spending when I ask a question don't tell me to go home a read about it. It is the schools job to make sure you learn the material your way, BUT it does not mean that the student can get away with out doing homework and such.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by Champcar

I agree with van on this one as a student. With the amount of money i'm spending when I ask a question don't tell me to go home a read about it. It is the schools job to make sure you learn the material your way, BUT it does not mean that the student can get away with out doing homework and such.

Okay...so the following scenario would NOT be spoon feeding, correct?

Me: I did the reading I was supposed to do, and I have some questions. I wrote them down. Can you clarify?
CFI: Yeah. Here's how this works...when you add power here....

[Champcar]

Originally Posted by killbilly

Okay...so the following scenario would NOT be spoon feeding, correct?

Me: I did the reading I was supposed to do, and I have some questions. I wrote them down. Can you clarify?
CFI: Yeah. Here's how this works...when you add power here....

Thats what I was trying to say

[Check_Six]

I used the term "spoon feed" in a recent post, so I'll give my $0.02 on what I meant...

I consider S.F. to be when I'm teaching CFI-initial, CFII, or MEI students and they are constantly asking me for answers to questions that could easily be found with a little research. I get tons of systems/weather questions that are blantantly answered in the POH, AIM, etc. Ex: "Um...how many fuel pumps are there in this plane?" or "What do the codes in the remarks section of a METAR mean?" And honestly, those are questions that anyone (except maybe a fresh PPL) should be able to answer or look up. Students who demonstrate that they can at least pick out the correct reference manual for the answer get my full support. Those who whine and tell me that it's my responsibility to hand out answers probably won't be my student for very long.

If a student simply can't master they necessary flight skills, then I recommend that they might consider a second opinion. Perhaps another instructor will have a different teach style that will better assist them during the training. Same goes for flight schools. The school is responsible for providing a service, and many schools are geared toward certain types of students. If it's not working out, then the school should reserve the right to have the student seek training services elsewhere.

I make my students aware of my expectations the first time we meet. I feel that it is only fair to lay my expectations on the table and let them decide if they want to meet the challenge. If schools are upfront regarding the expectations of their programs, then the burden is on the student to meet those expectations.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Check_Six

I consider S.F. to be when I'm teaching CFI-initial, CFII, or MEI students and they are constantly asking me for answers to questions that could easily be found with a little research. I get tons of systems/weather questions that are blantantly answered in the POH, AIM, etc. Ex: "Um...how many fuel pumps are there in this plane?" or "What do the codes in the remarks section of a METAR mean?" And honestly, those are questions that anyone (except maybe a fresh PPL) should be able to answer or look up. Students who demonstrate that they can at least pick out the correct reference manual for the answer get my full support. Those who whine and tell me that it's my responsibility to hand out answers probably won't be my student for very long.

I can go along with that. I just misunderstood what was meant by the term I guess.

[N422NM]

Originally Posted by Champcar

I agree with van on this one as a student. With the amount of money i'm spending when I ask a question don't tell me to go home a read about it. It is the schools job to make sure you learn the material your way, BUT it does not mean that the student can get away with out doing homework and such.

I say you should read stuff at home about critical engines and 23.149 and stop posting on this website so much....

[meritflyer]

My 2 pennies?

I think alot of schools do take a crap on alot of their students. I know of a few here in Phoenix that are famous for being excessively rude to students and charging them seemingly unnecessary charges.

Nevertheless, there must be an amicable relationship between the service provider and the customer for both parties to feel good about the transaction.

[DE727UPS]

I think the crap you take is directly proportional to the amout of money you have in their account. This is a good reason to not go to a school that makes you pay up front. Doing so takes away your options. That's a bad thing.

[bLizZuE]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I think the crap you take is directly proportional to the amout of money you have in their account. This is a good reason to not go to a school that makes you pay up front. Doing so takes away your options. That's a bad thing.

100% agreed! (pay as you go :P )

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I think the crap you take is directly proportional to the amout of money you have in their account. This is a good reason to not go to a school that makes you pay up front. Doing so takes away your options. That's a bad thing.

Good schools also need upfront money to provide good resources to provide good training and have good instructors and airplanes, and....etc.

Having to pay up front, in and of itself, is not a good way to judge it.

Ask around with other students currently in a program, the user, to see what you are buying.

[DE727UPS]

"Good schools also need upfront money to provide good resources to provide good training and have good instructors and airplanes"

I don't see why. Maybe your big academies just run that way. But I don't see it as necessary. I know of big FBO's that are on par with the academies running newer aircraft. They don't make you pay upfront though you get a discount for pay in advance block rates.

If you pay up front you have no leverage and you're sticking your neck out. I guess many places expect you to do that, though.

[Champcar]

There is no reason to pay up front, even at a academy.

[ananoman]

Originally Posted by nosehair

Good schools also need upfront money to provide good resources to provide good training and have good instructors and airplanes, and....etc.

Having to pay up front, in and of itself, is not a good way to judge it.

Ask around with other students currently in a program, the user, to see what you are buying.

I think any school that wants students to pay everything up front should be avoided. It is one thing to give a discount to have a couple of thousand in your account. It is something else entirely to have people pay in full, up front.

If a student is stupid enough to do this, they invite disaster. All you have to do is look at what happened at ATA in Orlando and probably a 100 other schools over the years. Nothing like paying in full and showing up to a locked building. "Sorry we are closed, have a nice life." There were students that lost tens of thousands at ATA. Reason enough not to pay up front...

[juskl]

Finally finishing up my CFI after starting flying back in 1990. Several hiatuses in between.. I have seen the good the bad and the ugly when it comes to flight instruction. Though I never attended an academy (looked into it at one point though). The one major critique that I see with some instructors is that teaching for them is merely a means to and end. They want the time they need and then jump up to the next rung on the ladder (understandable). However, this sometime leads to people who don't really want to teach... They feel they have to in order to get the time, but they don't really want to.

At one unnamed school, I saw an instructor walk to the front desk looking very angry. He told the counter person to charge the two hour time block (he was doing a ground) to the students account and that the student was being sent home due to his lack of preparation. The student appeared to be about 18...... I couldn't believe what I was seeing. The instructor was punishing the student by charging him (at the time about 35 per hour) for his time of two hours as the instructor went to lunch and didn't think twice about it.

The instructor was very good and new his stuff, but he had the tendency to get cocky and told everyone in the world (including his students) that as soon as he got his time he was out of there (great customer service.....).
He is very lucky that I was not his supervisor, I would have had a come to Jesus with him..... And I would not have charged the student.... I would have made the instructor teach him for time paid (even if it was maybe in a different area).

The fact of the matter is that students are different and some will frustrate the instructor. But does anyone think that the student will now have any desire to work with that instructor again, let alone stay at the school?

I want to teach flying.... I taught in the Police Department that I was with and enjoyed it. I have taught one thing or another most of my adult life. It will be challenging I know, but I am there to perform a service to the customer and to be a symbol for my employer. That is my job.

It seems that some schools want the students to fit their image (almost paramilitary) which is fine, if that is what you as a student are looking for. If not it is your responsibility to find what you are looking for.

And if we have a student who wants to not study, and wants to be spoon fed, fine.... as long as we make sure and "document" the conversation about the need to study and that if they are not prepared, then we will not be prepared to sign them off...... I heard boating is a nice hobby.......

On that note, I will say that I will try to be patient and hope for the best students at all times, I will just run away from the other kinds....

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by juskl

The instructor was punishing the student by charging him (at the time about 35 per hour) for his time of two hours as the instructor went to lunch and didn't think twice about it.

Congratulations to that instructor. Two hours might be a bit steep, but the principle is sound. However, the charge the instructor made to the customer's account should not be made in anger, and the policy should be clear at the very beginning of training.

Immature students will not do as you ask if they see that there is no penalty involved. If you choose to continue the lesson anyway, you become an "enabler"; the student will continue in his self-defeating behavior because you make it possible.

If you wait until the end to be the bad guy by withholding your endorsement, you'll have a lot bigger and more expensive problem on your hands than if you'd shown backbone all along.

[ananoman]

I also do not see anything wrong with charging a student who is unprepared. If it was a flight lesson that could not be completed due to the student being unprepared, then good for the instructor. Some people will never learn unless they are forced to see the light. Maybe after paying $70 and not getting anything in return, the student will show up prepared next time.