Nervous about Wake Turbulence

[Dazzler]

I have a student pilot who gets freaked out everytime we fly underneath a jet - which is a common occurrence here in the Minneapolis Class B terminal area.

He expresses concern about flying too close to the jet because its wake turbulence may "flip us over".

I've mentioned several times that the area to avoid is up to 1,000 feet below and 5 miles behind the jet, and that the class B airspace is there to protect us from the "big boys" but he still gets nervous.

Any suggestions on how to quash his fears?

[jrh]

Originally Posted by Dazzler

I have a student pilot who gets freaked out everytime we fly underneath a jet...

Any suggestions on how to quash his fears?

I have to say, that's one of the stranger fears I've heard of a student pilot having.

In general, education is the cure for fears. I'm sure King Schools or Sportys or Jeppesen has a good segment on DVD about wake turbulence. Have him watch something that includes lots of good 3-D graphics that explains wake turbulence in detail.

Books would be another option. I know the AIM has some good info on wake turbulence, although the reading is a bit dry.

The last option I can think of, although expensive, would be to have him do some aerobatics, either in real life or on a good sim. Show him that going inverted really isn't that bad and is easily recoverable, as long as you're at least a few hundred feet up. My buddy went through Flight Safety's King Air sim training and part of the training included recovery from wake turbulence upsets. It really impressed him to see how even a fairly large aircraft can be recovered from inverted flight in only a few hundred feet.

Other than that, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe the fear will go away on its own eventually, once he gets more time in the air and gets more adjusted to his surroundings in the air.

[averyrm]

Seems that this, like many aspects of aviation, is a fear that will subside with experience and knowledge. JRH had some good ideas. To add, point out when you're flying below/near jets how you know you're safe where you are, visual cues and etc. Get the AIM out and show how controllers need to keep you safely away from wake turbulence, and what you can do to negate risks associated with it.

That said, make sure he doesn't get complacent on TO/Ldg behind heavies, it's more dangerous than a lot of people seem to think.

[Champcar]

I'd say the best way to stomp on his fear is get him through some wake turbulance, show him that most of the time it is a non event but he needs to be ready and aware of it.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by Champcar

I'd say the best way to stomp on his fear is get him through some wake turbulance, show him that most of the time it is a non event but he needs to be ready and aware of it.

I would strongly advise against this. Intentionally going through wake turbulence might build his confidence too much. Wake turbulence *is* a big deal, and should be respected. It's just not something that should be blindly feared.

Take this from someone who was rolled 45 degrees, while at 50 AGL, crossing the runway threshold, because of wake turbulence from a Dash 8. All because I got overconfident with the "it's never been a big deal before" attitude.

[Champcar]

Originally Posted by jrh

I would strongly advise against this. Intentionally going through wake turbulence might build his confidence too much. Wake turbulence *is* a big deal, and should be respected. It's just not something that should be blindly feared.

Take this from someone who was rolled 45 degrees, while at 50 AGL, crossing the runway threshold, because of wake turbulence from a Dash 8. All because I got overconfident with the "it's never been a big deal before" attitude.

It is much better for a student to experiance something with their instructor for the first time then on their own. Im not saying take him in behind a 747 but a Crj or even your own wake would be good for him to feel.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Champcar

I'd say the best way to stomp on his fear is get him through some wake turbulance, show him that most of the time it is a non event but he needs to be ready and aware of it.

Not smart, IMO. A 172 cant handle the wake of a jet liner. Hell, a 757 can plant a RJ.

[greaper007]

I'd agree, there are a lot of things not worth the experience. Flying through steady state thunderstorms (or any for that matter), low level windshear, freezing rain, near mid-air collisions.....

I'd second the aerobatic time. When I did my spin training I did it in a decathalon. After a few spins the instructor said "Well I can sign you off, want to do some aerobatics?" After a few rolls he told me he'd do some unusual attitudes. I'm used to, close your eyes until I tell you. However, when he said "recover," we were inverted. I was trying to figure out, add power or cut power, and finally just said screw it and flipped us right side up.

[PanJet]

Originally Posted by jrh

Take this from someone who was rolled 45 degrees, while at 50 AGL, crossing the runway threshold, because of wake turbulence from a Dash 8. All because I got overconfident with the "it's never been a big deal before" attitude.

Was that with me? Because that's happened to me too. Although I think I was behind a King Air, not a Dash 8. Interesting experience I must say. Maybe it was another time though.

I've also hit wake turbulence of an A320 while enroute departing Seattle in an Arrow. Mostly just a big bump, but being at 8,000 ft. is a little different than 50 AGL.

[PanJet]

Originally Posted by Champcar

It is much better for a student to experiance something with their instructor for the first time then on their own. Im not saying take him in behind a 747 but a Crj or even your own wake would be good for him to feel.

I agree with the above posts. It's probably not a good idea to put yourself in harm's way intentionally. Even if the chances of something happening are slim, you're still increasing your risk, something pilots are taught not to do. Sometimes increasing the risk is not worth the educational value it may have. I've heard many stories of nifty tricks tried for educational value that have gone wrong somehow and caused incidents or nearly did so. (Fuel valves shut off to simulate engine failure, circuit breakers pulled on gear pumps, etc. )

It also confuses the student. All pilots are taught to avoid wake turbulence: it's one of the most basic requirements of flight training. To intentionally seek out something you're trying to teach your student to avoid isn't sending a good message. It's like telling a child not to play with fire and then handing them a match.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by PanJet

Was that with me? Because that's happened to me too. Although I think I was behind a King Air, not a Dash 8. Interesting experience I must say. Maybe it was another time though.

No, it was with a prospective student during his first intro flight. He was doing pretty good, so I was letting him fly it all the way down final even. The problem was that I got complacent, didn't worry about the Dash 8 ahead of us, and let him get kind of low.

As soon as we hit the turbulence I took the controls and started a go around. Outwardly I think I stayed pretty calm, even though it spiked my heat rate to about 150 beats/minute. I was worried it would freak out the new guy, but he ended up thinking it was cool. He was like, "Wow, cool, I've read about wake turbulence before, but I've wondered what it was actually like!"

Yeah...well, scary and temporarily out of control, that's what it's like...hope you enjoyed your intro flight!

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by Champcar

I'd say the best way to stomp on his fear is get him through some wake turbulance, show him that most of the time it is a non event but he needs to be ready and aware of it.

this is one of the dumbest things I've read on this forum

[Champcar]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

this is one of the dumbest things I've read on this forum

Why? you scared of a few thumps? They gotta know what it feels like sometime down the road. Whats so hard about doing a correct steep turn and hitting your own wake...

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by Champcar

Why? you scared of a few thumps? They gotta know what it feels like sometime down the road. Whats so hard about doing a correct steep turn and hitting your own wake...

wake from your own aircraft is a completely different thing than the wake from an aircraft much much larger than yours. Hitting your own wake to show a student its no big deal isn't going to teach them a damn thing.

[Champcar]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

wake from your own aircraft is a completely different thing than the wake from an aircraft much much larger than yours. Hitting your own wake to show a student its no big deal isn't going to teach them a damn thing.

Ok well where am I saying go up behind a 74? never said that. Maybe a CRJ or something much smaller.

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by Champcar

Ok well where am I saying go up behind a 74? never said that. Maybe a CRJ or something much smaller.

yeah...you go ahead and give that a shot. Lemme know how that works for you.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Champcar

Ok well where am I saying go up behind a 74? never said that. Maybe a CRJ or something much smaller.

Champ, not a good idea bro. The vortices and/or potential induced roll are too much for a light airplane to deal with. I've been through the spin cycle behind a King Air. I'd highly advise against it. Go fly in some high wind conditions and let 'em feel the bumps.

[Flysher]

Ive hit CRJ wake at glideslope intercept at 170 knots in a baron and it wasnt to fun. I cant imagine it at cessna speeds.