ILS Critical Area

meritflyer · September 10th, 2006, 09:36

At Salt Lake Int'l there is a large box surrounding the hold short line at RWY 35. It is an ILS critical area. If you're told to hold short and you're VFR can you go inside that box?

Does that make sense?

BobDDuck · September 10th, 2006, 10:19

They will tell you when to hold short of the ILS critical area. It has nothing to do with what you are doing but rather what the planes on final are doing. If the weather is below some certain amount they have to protect that area from aircraft causing scatter off the antennas amoung other things. I'm not sure what the mins are but they will let you know or it will be in the ATIS. Also sometimes on nice weather days of a crew is doing a CIII approach for currency they will some times protect the critical area as well.

DE727UPS · September 10th, 2006, 11:17

If the weather is less than 800/2, you should hold short of it. In those conditions, ATC is supposed to tell you to hold short of it but pilots share the responsibility.

When I was on the ATC committe at my union, we had a crew get violated in KMHT for not holding short of the ILS hold line when the weather was less than 800/2. I did some research in the 8710.65 to show that ATC is supposed to tell you to hold short. (I don't think they do a lot of times). This was ten years ago. Don't know if things have changed.

surreal1221 · September 10th, 2006, 12:55

What's the 8710.65? Sure you didn't meant 7110.65?

DE727UPS · September 10th, 2006, 17:11

7110.65. That's it, my bad.

MidlifeFlyer · September 10th, 2006, 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by meritflyer

If you're told to hold short and you're VFR can you go inside that box?

Does that make sense?

I don't know. I may be misunderstanding the question but it sounded like, "If you're told to hold short can you disregard the ATC instruction and go anyway?"

Isn't holding short for the ILS critical is so that aircraft arriving using the ILS will have a reliable signal? If that's the case, what difference does it make if the vehicle interfering is an aircraft traveling IFR, VFR, or is a truck?

meritflyer · September 10th, 2006, 19:00

Well, there is a box surrounding the entrance to runway 35 that is the ILS critical box. Inside that, there is a standard hold short line. If its a clear, nice day and you're departing VFR or even IFR and told to hold short of runway 35, can you cross the ILS critical line and use the standard hold short line?

MidlifeFlyer · September 10th, 2006, 19:13

Ah! I did misunderstand the question.

Yes, you may cross it. The ILS critical line has no relevance unless ILS ops are, well, "critical."

There's a real good discussion of the whole thing at AIM 1-1-19.k, including the weather minimums to which it applies.

Besides, as Bob mentioned, at a towered airport, ATC will use the "hold short of the ILS criritcal area" when needed, and it won't be a VFR day.

meritflyer · September 10th, 2006, 19:19

Ahhh.. thanks all!

surreal1221 · September 10th, 2006, 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

7110.65. That's it, my bad.

No worries DE. And I meant to say "sure you didn't mean..."

wheelsup · September 10th, 2006, 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

There's a real good discussion of the whole thing at AIM 1-1-19.k, including the weather minimums to which it applies.

Is it just me, or is it kinda odd that something that atc wants to violate you for isn't in the FAR's, it's in the AIM? The last captain I flew with didn't even know when to hold short (ie wx mins).

MidlifeFlyer · September 11th, 2006, 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Is it just me, or is it kinda odd that something that atc wants to violate you for isn't in the FAR's, it's in the AIM? The last captain I flew with didn't even know when to hold short (ie wx mins).

There's a lot of that. "The AIM is not regulatory" is one of the great half-truths of aviation.

I don't think it's really that odd. You've got some general obligations to follow the traffic signs at an airport. In the ATC/towered airport context, you've got 91.123 that requires you to follow ATC instructions.

The AIM is simply telling you what those signs are and what they mean. (Can you find the reg that tells you to stop at a hold short line?)

jawright · September 11th, 2006, 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Is it just me, or is it kinda odd that something that atc wants to violate you for isn't in the FAR's, it's in the AIM? The last captain I flew with didn't even know when to hold short (ie wx mins).

Yeah, but there's always the catch-all "careless and reckless operation of an aircraft," which is in the FARs. They could probably get you on that.

flyguy · September 12th, 2006, 22:58

Ummmm.....If you are VFR, I'm guessing the weather is better than 800/2. If not why are you flying VFR? If the weahter is better than 800/2 and for whatever reason ATC tells you to hold short of the ILS critical area anyway, that answers your question - do what they told you. If its better than 800/2 and you are told to hold short of the runway, you do not have to hold short of the ILS critical area. It dosn't matter if you are IFR or VFR, the purpose of te ILS critical area is so that you won't interfere with the ILS. Its to protect approaching aircraft that are in the soup, not you.

flyguy · September 12th, 2006, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawright

Yeah, but there's always the catch-all "careless and reckless operation of an aircraft," which is in the FARs. They could probably get you on that.

Moral of the story: Be polite to ATC. If you are polite and accomidating, they will usually cut you some slack even if you do violate something (assuming nothing major and it was clearly a genuine mistake). But if you piss them off and are rude to them, they can find some reason to make you call the tower.

September 10th, 2006, 09:36	#1
meritflyer Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Winchestertonfieldville Posts: 6,738	ILS Critical Area At Salt Lake Int'l there is a large box surrounding the hold short line at RWY 35. It is an ILS critical area. If you're told to hold short and you're VFR can you go inside that box? Does that make sense? __________________ The simplest answer tends to be correct.

September 10th, 2006, 10:19	#2
BobDDuck Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Left Seat Posts: 5,734	Re: ILS Critical Area They will tell you when to hold short of the ILS critical area. It has nothing to do with what you are doing but rather what the planes on final are doing. If the weather is below some certain amount they have to protect that area from aircraft causing scatter off the antennas amoung other things. I'm not sure what the mins are but they will let you know or it will be in the ATIS. Also sometimes on nice weather days of a crew is doing a CIII approach for currency they will some times protect the critical area as well. __________________ TBJC08 The Gear Monkey The Gear Monkey Store

September 10th, 2006, 11:17	#3
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,546	Re: ILS Critical Area If the weather is less than 800/2, you should hold short of it. In those conditions, ATC is supposed to tell you to hold short of it but pilots share the responsibility. When I was on the ATC committe at my union, we had a crew get violated in KMHT for not holding short of the ILS hold line when the weather was less than 800/2. I did some research in the 8710.65 to show that ATC is supposed to tell you to hold short. (I don't think they do a lot of times). This was ten years ago. Don't know if things have changed.

September 10th, 2006, 12:55	#4
surreal1221 Old Skool Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Alpha Tango Lima Posts: 9,836	Re: ILS Critical Area What's the 8710.65? Sure you didn't meant 7110.65? __________________ AGI.MEI.CFI.CFII.FO.CRJ2 \| Josh \| The TRoP \| Rmble On \| ALPA \| IVAW \| ACLU \|

September 10th, 2006, 17:11	#5
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,546	Re: ILS Critical Area 7110.65. That's it, my bad.

September 10th, 2006, 19:00	#7
meritflyer Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Winchestertonfieldville Posts: 6,738	Re: ILS Critical Area Well, there is a box surrounding the entrance to runway 35 that is the ILS critical box. Inside that, there is a standard hold short line. If its a clear, nice day and you're departing VFR or even IFR and told to hold short of runway 35, can you cross the ILS critical line and use the standard hold short line? __________________ The simplest answer tends to be correct.

September 10th, 2006, 19:13	#8
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 3,027	Re: ILS Critical Area Ah! I did misunderstand the question. Yes, you may cross it. The ILS critical line has no relevance unless ILS ops are, well, "critical." There's a real good discussion of the whole thing at AIM 1-1-19.k, including the weather minimums to which it applies. Besides, as Bob mentioned, at a towered airport, ATC will use the "hold short of the ILS criritcal area" when needed, and it won't be a VFR day. __________________ Mark www.midlifeflight.com "I don't understand" doesn't mean it's gray

September 10th, 2006, 19:19	#9
meritflyer Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Winchestertonfieldville Posts: 6,738	Re: ILS Critical Area Ahhh.. thanks all! __________________ The simplest answer tends to be correct.

September 12th, 2006, 22:58	#14
flyguy Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 2,094	Re: ILS Critical Area Ummmm.....If you are VFR, I'm guessing the weather is better than 800/2. If not why are you flying VFR? If the weahter is better than 800/2 and for whatever reason ATC tells you to hold short of the ILS critical area anyway, that answers your question - do what they told you. If its better than 800/2 and you are told to hold short of the runway, you do not have to hold short of the ILS critical area. It dosn't matter if you are IFR or VFR, the purpose of te ILS critical area is so that you won't interfere with the ILS. Its to protect approaching aircraft that are in the soup, not you. __________________ "Roads?...Where we're going we don't need roads."

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode