Renter Checkouts

[Van_Hoolio]

Have any of you done a renter checkout for someone who was horrible? I'm flying with this guy right now who wants to get checked out in our Seneca and he just sucks! His flying is so god-awful that it leads me to believe much of his flight time in his logbook is fabricated. Here's the nasty write-up I did on him in the documentation:

Background: Mr. X is a commercial-certificated pilot with over 1800 hours logged. He received his commercial certificate in December of 2004. He has over 1000 hours of multiengine time logged, and also has logged over 920 hours of instrument time, roughly 20% simulated and 80% actual.

Preflight activities included a review of the take-home aircraft test. Some items were not correct because Mr. X was using data for a Piper Seneca III instead of a Seneca II. Mr. X still did not want to purchase an operator’s manual for the Seneca II. This flight was conducted under instrument flight rules from BWI to FDK and back to BWI.

Upon Takeoff Mr. X did not complete the climb checklist, even after being prompted to by the instructor pilot. The POH recommends establishing the cruise climb configuration after terrain clearance is no longer a consideration. While on the ground at Frederick, Mr. X was briefed on the procedure for establishing the cruise climb. Upon the second takeoff, Mr. X still did not follow the proper procedure for establishing the cruise climb and at the conclusion of the flight he argued that there were more important considerations in the particular phase of flight than configuring the aircraft in the manner outlined in both the checklist and the POH.

The checklist was used and followed up until after takeoff, when Mr. X seldom used the checklist. He did not fly the aircraft in accordance to the checklist (which was not used) in the following phases of flight: Cruise, Descent, Approach (precision), Normal Landing. After the flight Mr. X was warned to fly the aircraft according to the checklist. His performance during cruise in actual instrument conditions was poor. He often had the aircraft in a 30 degree bank in both directions. He demonstrated a severe inability to hold the aircraft steady on a course or heading. At one point the instructor pilot intervened and corrected a steep bank to the right that Mr. X allowed the aircraft to get into.

Mr. X did not verbally brief either instrument approach. Altitude was held within reasonable standards (+/- 100 feet) but he could not hold a steady heading or course. At times he did not have the HSI needle twisted to show the proper course to be flown. Mr. X demonstrated a reasonable ability to operate the Garmin 430 and the other NAV instruments, with the exception having the HSI needle twisted to the proper course.


Mr. X’s communication skills in the Class B and IFR environments were satisfactory. Mr. X was able to physically take off and land the aircraft satisfactorily, with the exception of not following the procedures in the checklist. Mr. X flew the aircraft at an excessively high airspeed until on short final.

If this bozo doesn't get his stuff together, there's no way I'm turning him loose in our twin. I'm not going to let him crash my future multi time somewhere.

Funny thing about this guy is he had a loud "bark", questioning our flight school's methods of operation and making demands, as well as pointing out every fault he could find with the aircraft (a 1977, not perfect but airworthy). But he sure as hell couldn't fly to back it up!

He's got time logged in Barons and King Airs, but he was totally out of control in actual IMC in the Seneca. I cannot fathom how he has several hundred hours of actual IMC logged, unless the autopilot was on the entire time.

[Jonesberuitchamp]

get off the soapbox

[N422NM]

If it's that bad then don't rent an aircraft out to him without an instructor along at all times.

[Van_Hoolio]

That's what we're thinking.

I'm giving him one more shot in VFR day, but for an aircraft like that he'll have to go under the hood and show a lot of improvement under some IFR scenarios in order to be good to go.

If that doesn't work out he's welcome to pay for some dual given for as long as necessary.

The whole thing suprised the crap out of me. I thought this guy was going to fly like a rockstar and it would be an easy checkout over and done with quick. Wrong!


Mike

[averyrm]

I'd say with 1800 hours, and ~700 actual, he's lying or mislogging.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Jonesberuitchamp

get off the soapbox

???

[Ralgha]

Some of that stuff would give me pause, most would not. If it is the school policy that all pilots must follow checklists and verbally brief approaches, then that is all fine and good and should be followed, but me personally, I don't care.

When I check someone out, I don't care if they fly the way I do. I don't care if they use the same checklists I do. I don't care if they brief the approach the same way I do, or if they brief it verbally at all. I don't care what their climb/cruise/descent/any other phase of flight techniques are. All I'm looking for is if they can fly the airplane in a safe manner.

If they have their own checklist, great. If they don't use one at all, it would give me pause, and I would say something about it, ask them some questions about how they do it, etc., but it's not a show stopper. If they don't verbally brief an approach, I just sit back and watch. After a couple approaches one can tell if they've prepared for it or not, regardless of how they did it. As long as they don't exceed limitations, regulations, don't do anything unsafe, and don't scare me, they're usually good to go.

I do find 700+ hours of actual IMC flight suspicious with only 1800 total time though. However, I have encountered pilots who only choose fly when it's IMC.

[averyrm]

Psssh, what are you talking about Mitsu?

I have like 10,000 hours (9000 actual) and 43 types and no real pilot uses checklists. Besides with the time between updates that ATC has on their radar, unintentional steep turns are rarely noticed.

To hold a guy to standards is simply unrealistic. Oh, and shame on you if you ask the opinion of fellow CFI's in an unfamiliar situation, you should know it all straight off the bat!

In closing, the only way to get to a jet is to spend at least 80g's and do it the right way. Go to Gulfstream.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by averyrm

Psssh, what are you talking about Mitsu?

I have like 10,000 hours (9000 actual) and 43 types and no real pilot uses checklists. Besides with the time between updates that ATC has on their radar, unintentional steep turns are rarely noticed.

To hold a guy to standards is simply unrealistic. Oh, and shame on you if you ask the opinion of fellow CFI's in an unfamiliar situation, you should know it all straight off the bat!

In closing, the only way to get to a jet is to spend at least 80g's and do it the right way. Go to Gulfstream.

YEAAAAH!!!!

[mtsu_av8er]

Now, that's better!!!

I was actually going to make a freight dawg joke, but some 700 hour airline wonder would just come along and tell us why we're so *dangerous*!

The high speed down the final is pretty normal though!

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Its been a while since I've sat right seat for a student or new customer, but there was one guy I won't ever forget.

He was a crew chief in the Army on a -60 Blackhawk chopper and a 300 hour private pilot. He had just moved from somewhere afar and wanted to get checked out at our FBO, despite the fact that there were 3 other airports that were closer to his home. The written exam showed no signs of incompetence, so I was thinking the flight would be a non-event.

The first cause for concern came after we did the steep turns. He requested that we go down to "tree-top level" and do "a little low altitude maneuvering". I kindly declined and refreshed his memory on terrain clearance requirements.

I then figured we'd go over to another airport with a 4000 foot runway, since it can be a little bit of a culture shock for an out of town pilot to do their first landings on our 2270' x 45' runway, even in a Chickenhawk. In the pattern, it was 100 knots on downwind, 95 knots on base, and 85 knots on final, with a dumping of all 40 degrees of flaps on a 1/2 mile final. Needless to say, he ballooned miserably and floated the entire 4000 feet of runway and only went around after I intervened.

I made the typical suggestions for pattern leg/flap/speed, just as I would for a zero time student. He wouldn't have any of it, claiming that he and his -60 buddies didn't agree with using flaps until final approach. I wanted to ask him when Sikorsky started putting wing flaps on their helicopters.

The last straw came when he finally did get it on the ground, he decided to make it a touch and go even though I very clearly told him to go full stop. With no regard to torque or the right crosswind, we were soon up on 2 wheels and headed off the left side of the runway. I had to forcefully remove his hand from the throttle and take corrective action on the pedals to save our asses. After I taxied it clear of the runway, he looked at me with a shocked expression and said "DUDE, WHY DID YOU DO THAT! I'm the pilot of this bird, and I had it all under control." I showed him who was pilot as I flew it the entire 25 miles back to home base.

To make a long story short, after 3 flights, 2 near death experiences and alot of frustration and biting the tongue, the chief pilot had a little talk with him in the office. I never saw him again.

[Ian J]

Ack! I haven't given any renter checkouts yet... somebody please tell me most renters are ok!

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

Ack! I haven't given any renter checkouts yet... somebody please tell me most renters are ok!

Yeah, they are. For me, only 40% of them tried to kill me. But then again, I only did 5 of them in my short 6 month stint as a CFI.

Had another guy nearly put the amazing trailing link landing gear through the wings of an Ercoupe. Anyone that has been unfortunate enough to fly an Ercoupe knows that the elevator might as well not be there and its C-85 engine is worth its weight in copper. It was a true miracle that I was able to recover and make it soft enough to not hurt anything.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

Ack! I haven't given any renter checkouts yet... somebody please tell me most renters are ok!

Most are, but the memories of the scary ones stay with me for a while.

I don't care much for "weekend warrior" pilots anymore. The aspiring professional pilots, the retired professional pilots, even the wealthy businessmen that fly *a lot* with their own aircraft are usually pretty good. It's the ones who fly mostly for fun, have no professional experience, and don't go out more than 10 hours/year that really worry me.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by TFaudree_ERAU

Anyone that has been unfortunate enough to fly an Ercoupe knows that the elevator might as well not be there and its C-85 engine is worth its weight in copper. It was a true miracle that I was able to recover and make it soft enough to not hurt anything.

I'd consider myself *fortunate* enough to have a few hours of Ercoupe time, but I hear what you're saying! Although super fun planes, if you try to land them like a Cessna, you're asking for trouble. You have to fly them on to the runway.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by jrh

I don't care much for "weekend warrior" pilots anymore. The aspiring professional pilots, the retired professional pilots, even the wealthy businessmen that fly *a lot* with their own aircraft are usually pretty good. It's the ones who fly mostly for fun, have no professional experience, and don't go out more than 10 hours/year that really worry me.

You know, the part that really bugged me about those guys was the, "I don't do this for a living, so the same standards don't apply to me . . . " mentality. Although it wasn't universal, it was certainly pretty widespread.

I remember having a pilot say to me, "I don't do this for a living like you do, so I can't memorize all of this trivial information". That was pretty much the end of that checkout.

[Andrew_VT]

I agree with Ralgha completely and I also thought it was fitting that someone told you to get off your soap-box. You're making yourself sound like an isolated part 141 flight school robot.

141 checklist:
(check availability of toilet paper, unbuckle belt, lift toilet seat, pull down pants, sit down, ect..)

There are many ways of doing things, I make sure all my students can do everything without a checklist before I even allow them to solo, then they can have their checklist back.

Oh and the high speed final remark, I pride myself on my ability to maintain yellow arc till 500'agl, pwr idle(no shock cooling cause engines already cold from decent), gear down, white arc, full flaps, 80kts, short fld landing 500' before taxiway, reasonable breaking for perfect stop right at taxiway, idle cut off while still rolling into parking spot in an arrow. This is perfectly safe at my airport, entertaining, and requires a hell of alot more skill. Plus when you're on the clock (or a friend is that I'm flying for) it saves $$$. Saving money isnt something most 141 kids would know anything about though.

But, about your situation, I prob wouldnt give him a checkout either, more cause he sounded like a prick to you than anything else. Everyone knows a/c checkouts are about sucking up to the CFIs anyway to get the thing over with in as little time as possible.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Originally Posted by Andrew_VT

Oh and the high speed final remark, I pride myself on my ability to maintain yellow arc till 500'agl, pwr idle(no shock cooling cause engines already cold from decent), gear down, white arc, full flaps, 80kts, short fld landing 500' before taxiway, reasonable breaking for perfect stop right at taxiway, idle cut off while still rolling into parking spot in an arrow. This is perfectly safe at my airport, entertaining, and requires a hell of alot more skill. Plus when you're on the clock (or a friend is that I'm flying for) it saves $$$. Saving money isnt something most 141 kids would know anything about though.

As my forum name states, I'm a 141 kid. I pride myself on the same technique. Right now, I fly a 206 Stationair into some of the busier southeastern airports. I've gotten a few "thank you" comments from jet jockeys and ATC for being able to keep 110 - 120 knots down the slope until about 3/4 to 1 mile out and still make the first turnoff.

[Van_Hoolio]

Originally Posted by Andrew_VT

I agree with Ralgha completely and I also thought it was fitting that someone told you to get off your soap-box. You're making yourself sound like an isolated part 141 flight school robot.

I disagree. He's not getting checked out in a normally aspirated fixed gear single. He's getting checked out in a turbocharged retrac multi. We're not using a 141 school type checklist with redundancies out the ass either, it's based on what the manufacturer has in the POH. It's pretty straight to business. And I am of the opinion that it needs to be used and followed, especially for a complex aircraft like what we were flying.

I'm not opposed to speeding things along, but a pilot doing that needs to be comfortable and competent in the aircraft if they are going to fly like that. He was not, and thus he had no business bringing the aircraft in at pro-pilot speeds. He should at least had the common sense to keep it slow in the beginning. We were shooting an ILS at the conclusion of the flight and he got full deflection on the glideslope because he had to level off to get the airplane slow enough to get flaps in without excessively chopping the power. Had we not broken out of actual, we would have had to go missed. He didn't bother picking up the current ATIS, so he could not have known for sure where we would have broken out. He still chopped the power a little too frequently for my taste, which isn't great for the turbos.


Mike

[Andrew_VT]

whoops, I missed that this was a turbo'd multi. He was probably getting the checkout for the purpose of hard IFR XCs. You made the right call. Now I have to find another place to vent my checklist (to-do list) pet peeve during primary training.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by jrh

I don't care much for "weekend warrior" pilots anymore. .

I'm one of them.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

I'm one of them.

Yeah... but you're a flight instructor, Mark. I don't think you fit in the category he was referring to.

ALL weekend warriors aren't bad, people. Just the ones with the bad traits already mentioned in this thread.

[jawright]

Originally Posted by Van_Hoolio

We're not using a 141 school type checklist with redundancies out the ass either, it's based on what the manufacturer has in the POH.

What's the difference between a 141 checklist and a non-141 checklist?

[jrh]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

Yeah... but you're a flight instructor, Mark. I don't think you fit in the category he was referring to.

From what I know of Mark, he's an extremely sharp instructor.

Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of "weekend warrior" instructors out there, too. Mark's sharpness seems to put him in the minority, from what I've observed.

I'm not saying there is anything inherently wrong with this kind of instructor--in fact, they're better in some ways, because they teach for the love of teaching and aren't in a rush to go anywhere. However, I've had some bad experiences with this sort of instructor. The ones I've flown with don't seem to pay as close attention to detail, they don't know the regs as well, they're less motivated to train people quickly, they aren't as up to date with the latest techniques, etc. They just seem a little sloppier across the board. That's been my experience. YMMV.

[Ian J]

As a weekend warrior (actually night and weekend) instructor, I hope I don't fall into that category.

BTW, what's "YMMV?"