Short Fields and Power offs

[desertdog71]

OK here is one of those Meritflyeresque threads that we so enjoy.

Here are the scenarios.

Short Field takeoff in a Twin that lifts off before redline without flaps extended. The POH calls for 15 degrees of flaps, however this is a modded airplane with a STOL kit. I think that it would be perfectly acceptable to takeoff without flaps extended in this situation. Any thoughts on this one?

Next Scenario:

Power off stall recovery. Same airplane, now power off stalls are made to simulate a stall while in landing configuration. My question is on the recovery procedure. I think that adding power and reducing flaps before retracting the gear is acceptable but there seems to be some other opinions on this. I say add power establish Vy and a climb then retract flaps incrementally and then bring the gear up. Some think that the gear should come up first and then the flaps. Any thoughts on this one?

[surreal1221]

As a single engine type. . . my opinion won't matter much. . . BUT

I'd say pull the gear up after power has been increased, then start the incremental retraction of the flaps. Although I can understand the logic for keeping the gear down close to the ground. But if power has been increased, Vx or Vy coming, you are going to climb, so get the gear up (one smooth yank up), and then bring the flaps up.

It's going to take you more movement to retract the flaps, than it will to retract the gear. By the time you retract the flaps, you still have the gear down, providing drag, etc. Why not dispense that unwanted drag earlier?

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

OK here is one of those Meritflyeresque threads that we so enjoy.

Here are the scenarios.

Short Field takeoff in a Twin that lifts off before redline without flaps extended. The POH calls for 15 degrees of flaps, however this is a modded airplane with a STOL kit. I think that it would be perfectly acceptable to takeoff without flaps extended in this situation. Any thoughts on this one?

Next Scenario:

Power off stall recovery. Same airplane, now power off stalls are made to simulate a stall while in landing configuration. My question is on the recovery procedure. I think that adding power and reducing flaps before retracting the gear is acceptable but there seems to be some other opinions on this. I say add power establish Vy and a climb then retract flaps incrementally and then bring the gear up. Some think that the gear should come up first and then the flaps. Any thoughts on this one?

Meritflyer checkin' in!

Okay so, with question 1 here is my take -

I would say that without performance charts its never acceptable to assume the standards of performance. I am very cautious to operate under conditions in which the manufacturer has not tested and published performance charts and/or limitations for. FAR 91.9 says an aircraft must be operated within the limitations set forth by the POH, markings, or placards.

Question 2 -

When we're recovering from a power off stall the first priority should be to reduce the angle of attack and increase power. Only after a positive rate of climb should the flaps and gear be retracted. We may be close to the ground and if we were to retract the gear immediately there is a slim possibility we could settle the aircraft down abruptly onto the runway with the gear retracted.. ouch! I'd rather have the gear down than up (in a real life power off stall). Once the stall has occured and power is applied, I immediately reduce 10 degrees of flaps to minimize drag and maximize lift as the power off stall simulates a condition where we'd be close to the ground at a low speed and we'd want the maximum amount of lift from the wing.

I teach flap, flap, gear, atleast Vx, then the last 10 degrees of flaps on the recovery.

This is straight out of the Commercial PTS P. 2-27.

[caliginousface]

Flaps - Gear - Flaps - Flaps

[desertdog71]

The STC on this plane prohibits flap extension beyond 15 degrees. My take on it is this. Once you apply full power the plane is going to climb no matter what the configuration. The flap operationg range is much lower than the Gear operating range. So why not go full power pitch for Vy, raise flaps and then gear after establishing the climb.

The PTS says get to Vx or Vy before bring the last of the flaps in, and it says bring the gear up after establishing a positive rate of climb. Its not specific about the order in which to do it.

[meritflyer]

I dont think there is some aerodynamic explanation why you'd do it one way or another.

I teach flap, flap, gear, atleast Vx, last notch of flaps. The Advanced Pilot Flight Manual suggests flaps, then gear once a positive rate is established. It makes sense to dump the first two notches of flaps, retract the gear, then per the PTS note Vx (or Vy) then bring your last notch of flaps up.

If the STC sets a limitation, it must be complied with, IMO.

[N422NM]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

If the STC sets a limitation, it must be complied with, IMO.

That's the standard above with an STC, otherwise I teach it flaps, flaps, pos. rate-Vx-Gear up, flaps.

[Grabo172]

Originally Posted by caliginousface

Flaps - Gear - Flaps - Flaps

My thought exactly!

[flyguy]

The procedure I was taught and I teach for go around, slow flight recovery, and power off stall recovery is 5 Cs. Cram, Climb, Clean, Cool, Call.

Cram - Cram the quadrant forward, Mixtures, Props, Throttles full forward
Climb - Establish climb attitude, positive rate
Clean - Clean up the configuration. First notch of flaps immediately up then establish Vx, after reaching Vx & positive rate, second notch of flaps & gear up, climb at Vx until clear of any obstacle, then establish Vy climb. After reaching Vy & positive rate, last of the flaps up.
Cool - Cowl flaps open (can be done during the clean step while waiting for Vy)
Call - announce go around