HELP! FAR Clarification needed!

[PanJet]

Here's the scenario:

I am supposed to take my CFI initial checkride on Sunday, and the examiner called me about my IACRA form asking me why my PIC time in the aircraft to be used for the ride is the same as my total time in the aircraft. I stated that I was already a certificated pilot before I ever flew the aircraft. Here is a very short part of the conversation:

Him-"So in all the time you've been flying in that aircraft, the instructor has never once demonstrated a maneuver or touched the controls?"

Me-"No, that's not what I'm saying."

Him-"Well, then, you weren't the sole manipulator of the controls for the entire flight and you are falsifying records by recording that as PIC time. If you put that on your 8710 form we might consider that as falsification of records. By the way, you'd better be ready to give me an explanation for that on your oral or we're going to have some trouble."

Okay so basically I have a few problems here:

#1-I'm already at ends with the examiner and the ride hasn't even started.

#2-I need to clarify a reg that I understand, but I have to defend my understanding against him.

#3-I'm already freaking nervous and this is not helping!

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by PanJet

Here's the scenario:

I am supposed to take my CFI initial checkride on Sunday, and the examiner called me about my IACRA form asking me why my PIC time in the aircraft to be used for the ride is the same as my total time in the aircraft. I stated that I was already a certificated pilot before I ever flew the aircraft. Here is a very short part of the conversation:

Him-"So in all the time you've been flying in that aircraft, the instructor has never once demonstrated a maneuver or touched the controls?"

Me-"No, that's not what I'm saying."

Him-"Well, then, you weren't the sole manipulator of the controls for the entire flight and you are falsifying records by recording that as PIC time. If you put that on your 8710 form we might consider that as falsification of records. By the way, you'd better be ready to give me an explanation for that on your oral or we're going to have some trouble."

Okay so basically I have a few problems here:

#1-I'm already at ends with the examiner and the ride hasn't even started.

#2-I need to clarify a reg that I understand, but I have to defend my understanding against him.

#3-I'm already freaking nervous and this is not helping!

You're doomed!!!

and I am pretty sure he is correct, PIC is only when you are the sole manipulator if you are receiving instruction its not PIC time. Unless of course you are flying under the hood which requires 2 pilots, thats a whole other debate.

[MusketeerMan]

News to me...none of my instructors, either for my instrument or commercial deducted the time when they were "demonstrating a maneuver". You may want to talk to your FBO or wherever you're doing your training. Take it to your instructor or chief examiner and see what they say.

Possible to start fresh with another FAA examiner??

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by PanJet

PIC time in the aircraft to be used for the ride is the same as my total time in the aircraft. I stated that I was already a certificated pilot before I ever flew the aircraft.

It took me a while to parse this. Does this mean that you were certificated in the same make and model of aircraft, and he's not clear that we're talking about two different scenarios?

Does your PIC time just happen to match the time you've spent receiving instruction? I'm not clear on the question here, even though I am not qualified to answer it. I would like to understand it, though.

[KBUF]

See 61.51 (e)
It says in there that an authorized instructor may log PIC during all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor...

In part 1, Pilot in command means one who has final authority and responsibility for the flight (not necessarily the sole manipulator), i.e. yourself on a training flight (given you are appropriatley rated for the aircraft).

So...you can be the PIC who has final responsibility and authority, while the instructor logs PIC under 61.51(e) as an authorized instructor...

the examiner may just be testing your knowledge of the regs

[MusketeerMan]

Originally Posted by KBUF

See 61.51 (e)
It says in there that an authorized instructor may log PIC during all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor...

In part 1, Pilot in command means one who has final authority and responsibility for the flight (not necessarily the sole manipulator), i.e. yourself on a training flight (given you are appropriatley rated for the aircraft).

So...you can be the PIC who has final responsibility and authority, while the instructor logs PIC under 61.51(e) as an authorized instructor...

the examiner may just be testing your knowledge of the regs

Yeah...what he said.

[desertdog71]

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.


(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.


h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.

That being said, I do believe that PIC may only be logged by the CFI if the CFI is at the controls. CFI and Student can log PIC only if the Student is at the controls.

By student I mean the person being instructed, not student pilot.

Chew on that and tell me if you still think its ok to log PIC if your CFI is demonstrating a manuever and you are not at the controls.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by KBUF

See 61.51 (e)
It says in there that an authorized instructor may log PIC during all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor...

In part 1, Pilot in command means one who has final authority and responsibility for the flight (not necessarily the sole manipulator), i.e. yourself on a training flight (given you are appropriatley rated for the aircraft).

So...you can be the PIC who has final responsibility and authority, while the instructor logs PIC under 61.51(e) as an authorized instructor...

the examiner may just be testing your knowledge of the regs

You are giving the examiner too much credit, they ain't that smart. The guy, while being a ###### about this, is TECHNICALLY correct. You could just redo your times and deduct .1 for each flight with your instructor, put it in your logbook on one line, something like "negative" 5.7 hours for PIC correction, and just give the DE a new 8710 when you meet up with him. Honest mistake, chaulk it up to lessoned learned and move on.

[KBUF]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.


(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.


h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.

That being said, I do believe that PIC may only be logged by the CFI if the CFI is at the controls. CFI and Student can log PIC only if the Student is at the controls.

By student I mean the person being instructed, not student pilot.

Chew on that and tell me if you still think its ok to log PIC if your CFI is demonstrating a manuever and you are not at the controls.

Chewed it is...

You got me

Couldn't you just say that your instructor never demonstrated in that aircraft, just critqued? But, I think dugie 8's idea would most likely work a little easier.

[KBUF]

wait, im a CFI...I know everything!

[PanJet]

Okay guys. I have an update.

For those of you confused as to what I was saying, my PIC time in the aircraft is the same as the total time in the aircraft, meaning I have been PIC for the whole time I've ever flown that aircraft.

As for the situation, I talked to the local FSDO, and they agreed with me. They said the only time I couldn't log PIC time is when I was not appropriately rated for cat. and class in the aircraft. They also said that while the DE is technically correct, it is splitting hairs to count a 30 second demonstration of a maneuver as not PIC, and they didn't see any problem with logging PIC for the duration of the flight.

As far as the checkride goes, I'm bailing. Call me a wimp, but there are more problems that have risen since this issue, and I really don't want to spend $400 to almost certainly fail a checkride. There are just too many factors to go ahead with this.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by PanJet

As for the situation, I talked to the local FSDO, and they agreed with me. They said the only time I couldn't log PIC time is when I was not appropriately rated for cat. and class in the aircraft. They also said that while the DE is technically correct, it is splitting hairs to count a 30 second demonstration of a maneuver as not PIC, and they didn't see any problem with logging PIC for the duration of the flight.

That is kind of a BS answer. They said the DE is correct but its ok to ignore the regulations because your CFI may or may not have taken longer than 6 minutes demonstrating a manuever. Oh well I guess its just more PIC for me.

[DE727UPS]

"As far as the checkride goes, I'm bailing"

You gotta tell me who it is....or was.

If you have other options, I think it's a wise move to pursue them.

What does your CFI think about it? Go take it with the FSDO guy you talked to on the phone.

[PanJet]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

That is kind of a BS answer. They said the DE is correct but its ok to ignore the regulations because your CFI may or may not have taken longer than 6 minutes demonstrating a manuever. Oh well I guess its just more PIC for me.

Well, let me correct myself. I was the one that said that it was splitting hairs, but the FSDO gave me their opinion that they didn't see what the problem was with the way we'd been logging time, and I agree and accept it. I don't really know what else to do besides check with the people in charge.

[PanJet]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"As far as the checkride goes, I'm bailing"

You gotta tell me who it is....or was.

If you have other options, I think it's a wise move to pursue them.

What does your CFI think about it? Go take it with the FSDO guy you talked to on the phone.

I'm sending you a PM about the DE. I don't want to defame anyone publicly.

My CFI, as well as many others, agreed with me. The FSDO would do it, but they are booked solid for a while, so they're allowing me to either work with another FSDO or use a different DE, so I'm going to try our local guy.

[husky16]

Sorry bud-

Just say your instructor "talked you" through each maneuver which the DPE won't buy

or quickly get a new DPE

or quickly get sick right away into the exam and get a letter of discontinuance

and then get a new DPE. Bottom line- its your checkride and you can decide who you want to do it with.

[MusketeerMan]

What's the reason you're not taking the initial CFI ride through the FAA? It's free...

[PanJet]

Originally Posted by MusketeerMan

What's the reason you're not taking the initial CFI ride through the FAA? It's free...

I would have preferred that, but our FSDO has a couple examiners without medicals right now, so they are booked for the next few weeks. Aparently CFI rides don't take top priority. I could go to a different FSDO though if I need to this time around.

[Champcar]

The DE was stretching the Regs a bit to far.

desertdog71.........re tally your PIC time man.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Champcar

The DE was stretching the Regs a bit to far.

desertdog71.........re tally your PIC time man.

I haven't logged any PIC time on flights that I was getting instruction, except for under the hood. I guess I have a few more than I have logged, oh well. At this point I am not going to worry about a few hours.

[RynoB]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

That is kind of a BS answer. They said the DE is correct but its ok to ignore the regulations because your CFI may or may not have taken longer than 6 minutes demonstrating a manuever. Oh well I guess its just more PIC for me.

I've talked with a couple of FSDO guys who said, "it's close enough for government work," when filling out an 8710. One inspector handed me an 8710 to fill out. I went to my logbook to get some totals, and he told me to just estimate it.

[flyguy]

Originally Posted by MusketeerMan

What's the reason you're not taking the initial CFI ride through the FAA? It's free...

Maybe he wants a fighting chance. I don't know what most FAA inspectors are like, but all of them within a 200 nm radius of my home airport are completely unreasonalbe and will fail you for using a checklist other than the actual FAA approved checklist in the POH. No exaggeration! I think the national pass rate is something like 10%. I was lucky enouhg to get a DPE but a colleage of mine spent 4 tries over a course of about 5 months to get the checkride done, and he is a very competant pilot. I don't care if it is free, I wouldn't wish a CFI checkride with the FAA on my worst enemy.

[flyguy]

BTW, you can take any ride with the FAA and all of them would be free. So why does anybody go to DPEs?

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by KBUF

See 61.51 (e)
It says in there that an authorized instructor may log PIC during all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor...

In part 1, Pilot in command means one who has final authority and responsibility for the flight (not necessarily the sole manipulator), i.e. yourself on a training flight (given you are appropriately rated for the aircraft).

So...you can be the PIC who has final responsibility and authority, while the instructor logs PIC under 61.51(e) as an authorized instructor...

Except that Part 1 PIC is =not= automatically logable. In order to be logable as PIC time for FAA purposes, flight time has to fit into a 61.51 PIC box. Being the Part 1 PIC isn't listed there (unless you are Part 1 PIC in an operation that requires more than one pilot or are an ATP performing ATP/PIC duties)

Panjet, your DPE is =technically= correct. The 1-2 minutes your CFI spent demonstrating a maneuver is not logable by you as PIC. But, as Musketeerman said, it's unusual for those small bits of time to be deducted from the flight and I've never heard of the FAA or a DPE questioning it. This is the first time I've heard of someone who cared.

[KBUF]

thanks for the clarification