Teaching Things The Right Way

[mtsu_av8er]

Some of you may have noticed the thread discussing things that CFIs are tired of hearing and saying. Towards the end of the thread, the “Upwind Vs. Departure” issue was brought up. Some of us seemed to get particularly heated during said discussion.

I’m especially bothered by some of the things that were said in the thread. In particular, a pretty new CFI argued that the AIM should be changed because everybody calls the departure leg the upwind leg. That same CFI argued that since there are other things to worry about, we should just accecpt this and move on. A soon-to-be CFI implied that CFIs are self-righteous for being irritated by certain behaviors. Yet another CFI accused me of thinking that I was “always right” because I argued about the correct way to do things, as opposed to the incorrect way.

All of you guys need to listen to this. As Flight Instructors, we need to hold ourselves to a much higher standard than Billy-Bob, the weekend pilot. Just because many pilots do something the wrong way, we must continue to teach it the right way. If we don’t, then who will?

Imagine if every English teacher decided that since many people use “Ain’t”, it’s ok? Would that be appropriate? I mean, come on – since everybody uses it, it must be ok, right? WRONG. An English teacher would not accept that as justification.

Flight Instructors, listen (especially if you’re brand new): YOU HAVE A BIGGER ROLE THAN YOU REALIZE! Whenever you do things the correct way, people notice it. People recognize the fact that you’re a professional instructor, striving to be safe, competent and effective in your instruction. Likewise, if you’re unsafe and you cut corners, they’ll recognize that as well. Does this mean that everybody is going to do everything that you preach? Nope, not at all. Does this mean that you can save the world? Nope, not at all. However, you can change the pilot community, one pilot at a time. Remember, if we don’t, who will??

It isn’t always popular to stand your ground when it comes to an issue like this. I’m not bothered by that. People will call you self-righteous, and make fun of you. Oh, well – I’ve been called worse. As a CFI, however, I feel that I have a much higher responsibility. I’m supposed to do everything that I can to give my students top-notch instruction. Will I fall short sometimes? Yes. Will I make mistakes? Of course I will. I’ll get things wrong, but I’ll correct them as soon as I realize this. None of us are perfect, but as CFIs we should strive to be as close as possible.

We don’t all always get along on Jetcareers. Over the years in the CFI Corner, we’ve argued, fought, and debated about some pretty big stuff (and some pretty petty stuff . . . ). Instructional techniques, flying styles, weather, regs – you name it, it’s been discussed. Midlife_Flyer and I have gone back and forth, DE727 has ranted and raved, Captain_Bob has helped people figure their way through things and Ready2Fly has voiced his opinion lots and lots. Although we haven’t always agreed, one that that I’m sure everybody will agree upon is that the goal of the CFI forum is to provide good advice and guidance to one another (and those that aspire to be CFIs along with us).

Whenever we start advocating the incorrect way to do things, simply because it’s convenient for us – well, we start to lose credibility. As much as I hear people complaining about the low pay in the world of Flight Instruction, why would we want to voluntarily do anything to lose credibility? How can we demand more pay, and teach students incorrectly (or not correct a student that’s doing something the wrong way) in the same breath?

Just things to think about.

[JEP]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

.....
Just things to think about.

Well said Sensei.....

[moxiepilot]

Well said. I had noticed the end of the thread as well and fully support your responses. I even learned something!

Out of the many folks on the forum I believe you are one who deserves respect from the knowledge you impart and the manner which you conduct yourself.

There are a few folks who I wont engage in discussion here because of their lack of respect, which does not stem from a few misinterpreted posts, but a consistant arrogant attitude.

I try to humble myself as a CFI who knows a lot of technical stuff, but has a whole hell of a lot to learn; I learn a ton by reading these forums and debateing issues. But I stand beside you in your adamant view, and not self righteousness, of being greater or striving higher than the average pilot.

Isn't that what NAFI tries to instill with their pledge and certification of MCFI? Don't disrespect other CFI's. Always be learning. Always try to teach the correct thing in a safe manner.

When I have made a mistake teaching and see a student make that mistake (let's say due to primacy) it frusterates me. I have failed. I try to be better the next time; and, if it comes down to splitting hairs over the upwind vs. departure leg I'm all for the debate.

However in this case, I agree with you (actually I think I have yet to disagree with you.)

Keep up your good work, and stand firm!

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Flight Instructors, listen (especially if you’re brand new): YOU HAVE A BIGGER ROLE THAN YOU REALIZE!

Just things to think about.

Good post. I followed the one that spawned this one. I know it is frustrating when standardization isn't followed. As for what I quoted above, please realize that most CFIs understand their roles and responsibilities. Most understand how critical they are in forming new pilots minds, skills, and habits. Because you were having that discussion in the other thread it may seem like they don't understand; you may have attributed the few who argued with the CFI population as a whole, but for the most part, I believe they do understand.

[poppa2trolls]

As an instructor in the Air Force world, I was often given grief for demanding things be done right (i.e. per the regs)---even from other instructors. But the training environment is the proverbial vacuum. If we are even slightly careless with standards in the training environment, we invite students to be careless beyond the training environment.

Stick to your guns, mtsu. Standards are standards. Almost good is bad.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

A soon-to-be CFI implied that CFIs are self-righteous for being irritated by certain behaviors.

And I will say it again. It must be nice knowing everything.

Now you chose to take offense to my comment in the other thread. I did not direct that comment at you in particular, but in fact to the group in general.

You seem to be pretty fired up about it now, so I will expand on what my thoughts are.

1. Don't think you have all the answers simply because you passed a checkride. I have met plenty of CFI's that couldn't find their ass with both hands.

2. Don't lose touch with the fact that you were once a student, and made mistakes also.

3. Keeping a running kill count, on so-called attempts on your life by students is petty and childish.

4. No matter how much knowledge you have, there is always someone better than you. So don't act like the end all authority on everything aviation.

5. A little bit of humility and joy will go a long way when it comes to being an instructor.

I visited more than my fair share of schools across the country. The one major factor that contributed to most of them being eliminated was the instructors attitudes.

Now do you think I picked the school with the Hitler Youth looking instructors that were pissed at the world because they chose make $10.00 an hour? or did I choose the instructor that was giddy about flying everyday and took the time to talk to me longer than 5 minutes?

Now Lloyd, again I am sorry if you felt my comment was directed at you, it was directed at the entire group. Take away from that whatever you wish.

[Ian J]

2. Don't lose touch with the fact that you were once a student, and made mistakes also.

You aren't taking offense at CFIs joking about funny or frustrating things students do are you? I mean just because you joke about that stuff doesn't mean you're a know it all and have forgotten you were once a student. Hell, I joke about that stuff with my students. "Boy, you really tried to retract those fixed landing gear today, didn't you?" It's all in fun, and keeps things light hearted.

And just my opinion... there are people around here who act like the end all and be all of CFIs a whole bunch more than Lloyd.

And also just my opinion, please don't let this turn into a student vs. CFI kind of thing. It wouldn't be a healthy discussion. (Not directed at you D-Dog).

[mtsu_av8er]

Is this where I'm supposed to argue with you?

[moxiepilot]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

3. Keeping a running kill count, on so-called attempts on your life by students is petty and childish.

no it's not


btw, good luck on your training d-dog. i've read your blog and you seem to be moving at a quick pace. just to take a piece in context on your IFR trip to selina - if your concentration was jarred due to the bumps & stuff, imagine how it is to try and teach at the same time.

it, ofcourse is in jest; but there is a very real reality of being the truth. you will see....good luck

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Is this where I'm supposed to argue with you?

Nope, I said it in the post already, my original post on that other thread was not directed at you. I can see how it could be taken that way though.

Yes Chinook, it is fun when my CFI busts my balls from time to time. At the same time, I would be angry if he decided to post about my short comings on this board for the sake of a good laugh.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

Yes Chinook, it is fun when my CFI busts my balls from time to time. At the same time, I would be angry if he decided to post about my short comings on this board for the sake of a good laugh.

If he were posting them on a board designed for your professional peers to read, then you can get your panties in a wad.

If he's posting them on a CFI FORUM, without your name attached, with his CFI peers, then you have nothing to whine about.

If you think your CFI doesn't talk about your mistakes with other CFI's, you're dead wrong. It's how we deal with it.

So, if you feel uncomfortable about it, maybe you shouldn't hang out in the CFI corner. That's almost like sitting in the teachers' lounge and complaining that they talk about students.

[Ian J]

Yeah, if he said "DesertDog f'ed up and did X-Y-orZ" that would be bad. But for a bunch of CFI's to write about generally funny things students (plural) tend to do on a reoccuring basis in the CFI Corner of this forum - well, I think you would be overly sensitive to be offended by that.

Plus, students on this forum can learn from it. Lets say a student consistently lands left of centerline and is down on himself about it. He sees this thread where a bunch of CFIs are joking about students always landing left of centerline. The student sees its not just him, and can ask relevent questions on how to fix the problem. Also, those said CFIs joking about it know damn well they landed left of centerline quite often when they were students too.

[AZBigDog]

Well said MTSU.

Although I'm not outing anyone in particular, the sort of attitudes you pointed out are rampant on the aircraft maintenance side of things. There have been many an occasion when I've seen shoddy work allowed to pass muster. It really is frustrating to see this sort of thing happening but if you bring light to the matter you are looked upon by your peers as a snitch or a rat. The fact that A&P mechanics are legally liable for the work they perform should hinder some of these actions, but it doesn't.

It comes down to a matter of taking pride and responsibility in the things you do. If you enter the professional aviation field because of your love for it, then respect it for what it is and do things the right way. Taking shortcuts and finding loopholes in the system to expedite required tasks is not the way to do a job right. Sooner or later these shortcuts will catch up to you and the end result could be tragic or hopefully, for the sake of all, just the end of your professional aviation career.

AZ

[desertdog71]

I agree with pretty much everything you say guys. Except for the attitude. I have said what I needed to say, we can just disagree, I will get over it.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Boy, am I glad I didn't even read the other thread.

I agree with everything you said, Lloyd. But, having not read the thread and speaking in the same general terms you are here, the potential problem in a CFI insisting on "the correct way" is whether the "correct way" the CFI insists on is indeed the "correct way" or just "my way."

Although we all, hopefully, do our best to know the "correct way," it is unfortunately not uncommon to find CFIs who teach "my way."

There are some obviously silly examples, like Rod Machado's story about the student pilot who could not land because she was too short to see over the glare shield - her CFI insisted that she could not use a booster cushion. I'm sure that CFI was dead certain that his way was the "one true way." I'm sure some other stories are not as funny, like the CFI who takes a pilot who flies safely and tries to unnecessarily turn it all around, confusing the pilot completely.

[flyguy]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Imagine if every English teacher decided that since many people use “Ain’t”, it’s ok? Would that be appropriate? I mean, come on – since everybody uses it, it must be ok, right? WRONG. An English teacher would not accept that as justification.

Interresting analogy, however you are wrong in in thinking that no English teacher would accept it. An ESL teacher specifically teaches slang and ideoms. Why? Because so many people use them that they cannot communicate without knowing them. Spend some time with an ESL teacher and learn about ideoms. Try to go one day without using any. You'll find that you'll be at a loss for words, and it will very hard to communicate.

Lets roll with this analogy. Should we go around shouting at poeple every time they use a slang term? We'd make a lot of enemies over such a trivial issue. Shout at people for running in front of a truck, that might save lives. If you are going to give a lesson to someone about the importance of not sing the word "Aint" and the importance of not running in front of trucks, where will you put the emphasis? What do you hope they take away from the lesson? Lets say they learn not to run in front of trucks, but continue to use the word "Aint". Would you be equally as successful as an instructor if they learn not to use the word "Aint" but still run in front of trucks. Ideally they'd learn both, but if they only take one thing from the lesson, what you you rather it be. Let's put the emphasis where it belongs.

That being said, I never said we should teach students to say "upwind" as opposed to "departure". And my idea of changing the AIM was a bit of an exaggeration. But whether you want to believe it or not the term upwind has become common phraseology with both pilots and controllers. So please don't call me a bad instructor for not putting the same emphasis on the correct use of the word "upwind" than I do with safe traffic pattern operations, a proper go-around procedure, or stall/spin awareness etc.

By the way, thank you for pointing out that I am a new instructor. I must not know what I am talking about because I have less experience. Be that as it may, I will never, ever, agree that we should put the same emphasis on the correct use of the word "upwind" as we should on things that are really conducive to safety. So in a few years, after I get more experience and am worthy of conversing with you all, then I'll make my argument again, because I promise I will still have the same opinion on this issue.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by flyguy

Interresting analogy, however you are wrong in in thinking that no English teacher would accept it. An ESL teacher specifically teaches slang and ideoms. Why? Because so many people use them that they cannot communicate without knowing them.

An Eglish teacher, in the traditional sense.

Lets roll with this analogy.

Lets!

Should we go around shouting at poeple every time they use a slang term?

If your job is to make sure that a particular person or groupmof people speak correctly, then yes!!

As a Father, my job is to make sure that my daughter speaks correctly. In that particular situation, my responsibility is to make sure that she doens't use excessive slang.

As a Flight Instructor, my job is to teach students the correct way to do things. They hire me, I teach the the correct way. If they consider me an enemy because I harp on them about those "small things", then they can find another CFI.

We'd make a lot of enemies over such a trivial issue.

Unless it was in my job description.

Shout at people for running in front of a truck, that might save lives.

If I'm a public safety officer, i.e. a police office, then my job is to make sure that people don't do things in an unsafe manner. I'm hired by the tax payers, and I enforce safety.

Let's put the emphasis where it belongs.

On both of them.

And my idea of changing the AIM was a bit of an exaggeration.

That's not what you said . . .

But whether you want to believe it or not the term upwind has become common phraseology with both pilots and controllers. So please don't call me a bad instructor for not putting the same emphasis on the correct use of the word "upwind" than I do with safe traffic pattern operations, a proper go-around procedure, or stall/spin awareness etc.

Not bad - just one that doesn't mind his students doing the wrong thing.

And that's fine . . . if it's fine with you.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Not bad - just one that doesn't mind his students doing the wrong thing.

And that's fine . . . if it's fine with you.

Wow, I can't imagine why anybody would think "self-righteous" with that statement.

You mentioned being a parent, am I to believe that you don't pick your battles with your children? You'd be one hell of a tyrant otherwise.

[flyguy]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

An Eglish teacher, in the traditional sense.

Lets compare apples to apples. We're teaching a second language when we teach radio phraseology, so an ESL teacher is much more appropriate for the anaolgy.

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

As a Father, my job is to make sure that my daughter speaks correctly. In that particular situation, my responsibility is to make sure that she doens't use excessive slang.

If she uses a phrase that is commonly accepted as proper English, can you really call it excessive slang? That being the case, you teach her excesive slang whether you know it or not.

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

As a Flight Instructor, my job is to teach students the correct way to do things. They hire me, I teach the the correct way. If they consider me an enemy because I harp on them about those "small things", then they can find another CFI.

So are you saying you would give them the same harping if they use the word "upwind" as you would if they tried to takeoff with traffic on short final? Should the FAA also give us an equal harping? Should they start taking away certificates for using the word upwind or stop taking them away for runway incursions?

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

That's not what you said . . .

Yes it is. I said maybe the AIM should be changed, and now I'm saying maybe that was a little overboard. What are you contesting?

[moxiepilot]

i think the point is that we correct our students on the radio when they call "crosswind runway 24" when they are actually base. or disapprove of ebonics as a second language.

we are trying to maintain a standard if we can, of correctness, in procedure as instructors

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

Wow, I can't imagine why anybody would think "self-righteous" with that statement.

You mentioned being a parent, am I to believe that you don't pick your battles with your children? You'd be one hell of a tyrant otherwise.

No picking battles in my house. If she mouths off, she'll get a backhand.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

No picking battles in my house. If she mouths off, she'll get a backhand.

Is that for your kid or wife?

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

No picking battles in my house. If she mouths off, she'll get a backhand.

This is why my wife calls me Red Foreman, I use the foot in ass line quite often around here.

[jrh]

Wow. What a thread.

I have to admit, I'm with flyguy on this one...an instructor has to pick his (or her) battles.

Since somewhere along the line we started comparing logbooks, I'll address that off the start--I have about 450 hours dual given, mostly with private and instrument students, with a few commercial students, BFRs, and IPCs thrown in. Is that high time or low time or somewhere in the middle? I don't know, and I don't really care, but at least you have an idea of where I'm coming from.

From the instructing I've done, I've learned an important lesson...no pilot is perfect. If you try to make them perfect, you'll probably wear yourself out and get them pissed off at you. What I strive for is to make them safe and professional. I definitely have my pet peeves about phraseology, using checklists, and many others, but the fact still remains, I can't produce a perfect pilot, and I don't try. That's right, I'll say it again--I don't try. What I do try to do is develop a pilot who has high (but not necessarily perfect) skills, but more importantly, thinks about what they're doing and continues improving their skills long after they stop training with me. I think that's a much more critical long-term goal.

I completely agree with Lloyd in principle. Instructors should (and do) represent a higher level of flying. Instructors should always strive for perfection. But there's a difference between the end goal and the present reality, and we have to consider that. An instructor has to be practical in the way they teach, and that's how I read flyguy's comments.

To reference the discussion on "upwind" vs. "departure" leg of the pattern, I have to admit, I learned something new. I'd never even thought about it before. I just thought the two words could pretty much be used interchangeably. So after looking at the issue, I agree with Lloyd that there is a right way and a wrong way to do it, but I also thought to myself, "I can't believe people are getting in an argument over something this trivial." In the real world, there are SO many bigger issues to deal with. If I had to pick something to get bent out of shape over, it would not be anything remotely close to "upwind" vs. "departure." I wouldn't go so far as to say we should change the AIM, but come on...can't we let anything slide?

As far as your "attitude" goes, Lloyd...I'd like to meet you in person. I have no doubt we'd get along fine in person and you seem like a good guy when it comes down to it. That being said, I've also read some of your posts as a bit biting, or condescending, or preachy, or something. It's hard to put my finger on. It might just be the fact that we're typing instead of talking, so I can't use tone of voice or facial expressions to pick up on what you're really meaning. Maybe it's because I'm not much into putting quick, one line comments up on this board. If I post, I do it because I really have some hard information or detailed comments to say. It seems like anything less than that can easily get misinterpretted.

That's my $.02 on things.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by jrh

. . . "I can't believe people are getting in an argument over something this trivial." In the real world, there are SO many bigger issues to deal with.

So, who defines what is trivial, and what is not? I think that flying in the traffic pattern at 300 feet is cool, and I can do it safely - is that trivial? Where do we draw the line?

As far as your "attitude" goes, Lloyd...I'd like to meet you in person. I have no doubt we'd get along fine in person and you seem like a good guy when it comes down to it. That being said, I've also read some of your posts as a bit biting, or condescending, or preachy, or something.

I'm sorry that you take them as such. I'm not trying to be preachy at all. However, if something is wrong, it's wrong. As I said in the post before, if you're ok with intentionally doing things wrong because it's convenient for you, that's fine!

Let me say, however, that some of you have said that there's nothing unsafe about the incorrect terminology.

I know that I've had people pop up in front of me on the departure leg, claiming to be on the upwind. Why should I be in danger because they don't know how to do it correctly?

Or, maybe I'm just being preachy.