2 navigation questions

BuickCFI · April 24th, 2006, 21:19

1. when is a VOR required for IFR flight?

2. Can i fly IFR with ONLY a GPS, no other navigational aids only?

here is what i think the answers are, let me know if i am correct or not.

1. Only when you are going to use the VOR or when in Class B airspace.

2. Yes (but i am not entirely sure why)

subpilot · April 24th, 2006, 22:12

I say you are correct.

BuickCFI · April 24th, 2006, 22:52

to fly with GPS though, don't i need some sort of backup?

88MPH · April 25th, 2006, 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by brschmid

to fly with GPS though, don't i need some sort of backup?

Well, what would happen if in the soup and your GPS crapped out? You can use the standard (relative) "power out" navigation, i.e. get below the bases or fly to known VFR conditions, but I think it would be alot safer to have the backup!

I fly sometimes GPS direct, or even GPS along airways, but I always back up my position with VORs/NDBs/Localizers. It's not necessary, but it just gives me that extra assurance!

PanJet · April 25th, 2006, 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by brschmid

to fly with GPS though, don't i need some sort of backup?

I believe technically you can fly an all GPS route, assuming you fly GPS or RNAV approaches. As far as having a VOR, I don't believe you have to have one. 14 CFR Part 91.205 (d) (2) says, "...navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used." It doesn't specify VORs. However, does the reference to "ground facilities" rule out GPS only?

PanJet · April 25th, 2006, 03:56

Well, I kinda answered my own question. I couldn't find it in the regs, but according the AIM, in section 1-1-19 section d. paragraph b. "Aircraft using GPS navigation equipment under IFR must be equipped with an approved and operational alternate means of navigation appropriate to the flight."

However, this doesn't mean GPS can't be used solely, because it goes on to say, "Active monitering of alternative navigation equipment is not required if the GPS receiver uses RAIM for integrity monitoring."

So, in other words, it seems as if you can't have just GPS on board for IFR, but you can use it solely so long as you have other equipment set to back it up.

MidlifeFlyer · April 25th, 2006, 07:25

With PanJet pointing out that GPS requires traditional backup, it seems the answer to the first question becomes:

1. when is a VOR required for IFR flight?

Technically, only if "appropriate to the ground facilities" and Class B.

Practically speaking, that means just about always. With VOR being the primary navaid on which the system is based, airways, lost comm procedures, and GPS not being stand-alone, there aren't too many times that VORs would not be a g"ground facility to be used" in a typical IFR flight.

BuickCFI · April 25th, 2006, 08:59

thanks for clarifying, that is where i was confused. those were 2 question from my oral yesterday, for the most part the only 2 i couldn't answer (i didn't try to look them up either)

PanJet · April 25th, 2006, 17:24

Do you think the advancement of WAAS will ever constitute "ground facilities" and allow GPS only? Just a thought.

BuickCFI · April 25th, 2006, 18:54

it might, that is a good question

April 24th, 2006, 21:19	#1
BuickCFI Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: South of the Border Posts: 1,919	2 IFR navigation questions 1. when is a VOR required for IFR flight? 2. Can i fly IFR with ONLY a GPS, no other navigational aids only? here is what i think the answers are, let me know if i am correct or not. 1. Only when you are going to use the VOR or when in Class B airspace. 2. Yes (but i am not entirely sure why) __________________ CFI, CFII, MEI -Why is it when two planes almost hit each other it is called a near miss? Shouldn't it be called a near hit? Last edited by BuickCFI; April 24th, 2006 at 21:46.

April 24th, 2006, 22:12	#2
subpilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 730	Re: 2 IFR navigation questions I say you are correct. __________________ Together We Served "Helicopters don't actually fly. They just beat the air into submission." -Firebird2XC

April 24th, 2006, 22:52	#3
BuickCFI Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: South of the Border Posts: 1,919	Re: 2 IFR navigation questions to fly with GPS though, don't i need some sort of backup? __________________ CFI, CFII, MEI -Why is it when two planes almost hit each other it is called a near miss? Shouldn't it be called a near hit?

April 25th, 2006, 03:56	#6
PanJet Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: WA Posts: 559	Re: 2 navigation questions Well, I kinda answered my own question. I couldn't find it in the regs, but according the AIM, in section 1-1-19 section d. paragraph b. "Aircraft using GPS navigation equipment under IFR must be equipped with an approved and operational alternate means of navigation appropriate to the flight." However, this doesn't mean GPS can't be used solely, because it goes on to say, "Active monitering of alternative navigation equipment is not required if the GPS receiver uses RAIM for integrity monitoring." So, in other words, it seems as if you can't have just GPS on board for IFR, but you can use it solely so long as you have other equipment set to back it up. __________________ "Do you want to be a co-captain or a button pushing $@%#$ ??" -Friend Commercial Pilot-ASEL, AMEL, IA CFI, CFII, MEI 1,450TT/200ME Part 61 CFI and college student Former aerial photo pilot

April 25th, 2006, 07:25	#7
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 3,027	Re: 2 navigation questions With PanJet pointing out that GPS requires traditional backup, it seems the answer to the first question becomes: 1. when is a VOR required for IFR flight? Technically, only if "appropriate to the ground facilities" and Class B. Practically speaking, that means just about always. With VOR being the primary navaid on which the system is based, airways, lost comm procedures, and GPS not being stand-alone, there aren't too many times that VORs would not be a g"ground facility to be used" in a typical IFR flight. __________________ Mark www.midlifeflight.com "I don't understand" doesn't mean it's gray

April 25th, 2006, 08:59	#8
BuickCFI Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: South of the Border Posts: 1,919	Re: 2 navigation questions thanks for clarifying, that is where i was confused. those were 2 question from my oral yesterday, for the most part the only 2 i couldn't answer (i didn't try to look them up either) __________________ CFI, CFII, MEI -Why is it when two planes almost hit each other it is called a near miss? Shouldn't it be called a near hit?

April 25th, 2006, 17:24	#9
PanJet Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: WA Posts: 559	Re: 2 navigation questions Do you think the advancement of WAAS will ever constitute "ground facilities" and allow GPS only? Just a thought. __________________ "Do you want to be a co-captain or a button pushing $@%#$ ??" -Friend Commercial Pilot-ASEL, AMEL, IA CFI, CFII, MEI 1,450TT/200ME Part 61 CFI and college student Former aerial photo pilot

April 25th, 2006, 18:54	#10
BuickCFI Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: South of the Border Posts: 1,919	Re: 2 navigation questions it might, that is a good question __________________ CFI, CFII, MEI -Why is it when two planes almost hit each other it is called a near miss? Shouldn't it be called a near hit?

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