Conflicted (Not a newbie kind of question)

[FlyingNole]

Im a new flight instructor at a flight school that I had attended and rented from over the past 5yrs or so. Im friends with most of the isntructors there, so we already have a good working relationship. One instructor is a guy who owns some of the airplanes and leases them back to the flight school. He also happens to be an A and P that usually tinkers with the planes. He's not a full time instructor, but yet he's there "full time," if ya know what I mean...He actually sits in his car on the ramp all day and watches everyone coming and going. Its almost weird. lol.

Anyway, this guy has been flying for ages, and he's just an ol salt that makes it through the day by being around planes, and no doubt knows his stuff...HOWEVER, I kind of question his instructing and competence, when it comes to operating the bird safely. Maybe because he's getting old, or maybe just complacent.

So today I watch him come in and do a touch and go and climb out with full flaps...THe plane was barely climbing and rocking back and forth maybe 100ft or so off the ground. It then sank, and my student and I thought it was gonna crash. We then heard more power getting applied and you could see the flaps finally starting to go up. On the next round it looked like they were trying multiple touch and go's (like touching down getting a 200ft up or so and setting in back down)...When they touched down the 2nd time you could unmistakenly hear and see the tail smacking the ground.

(Im finishing)

So this guy ties up the plane, he talks with his student for a while and they both leave. I then checked the tail and there was some paint missing and you could see that there was fresh dirt and scrathes on the tail tie down loop. Kind like when you scrape your rims on a curb.

SOoooo, what should I do? I know I have to say something because its a safety issue. But Im not exactly sure as to how to go about it. Do I go straight to the top? Discuss it with the Cheif CFI? Any ideas?

(THis was at the end of the day today, and I'll be in first thing tomorrow, so no worries about andother renting taking the plane)

Thanks

[JEP]

Originally Posted by FlyingNole

.....
.When they touched down the 2nd time you could unmistakenly hear and see the tail smacking the ground.....I then checked the tail and there was some paint missing and you could see that there was fresh dirt and scrathes on the tail tie down loop. Kind like when you scrape your rims on a curb.

SOoooo, what should I do? .....Do I go straight to the top? Discuss it with the Cheif CFI? Any ideas?

.....

I would say that you do need to mention it to Chief Pilot/CFI and express your concerns. If something were to happen to one of his students or anyone, there is no doubt going to be trouble.

Also, if he has a tail strike and does not mention it, it may at some point cause some structural damage that you or another CFI may not be aware of when you take the plane.

Could it be possible that the guy did not know he had a tail strike?

[FlyingNole]

Ya, I dont even know if they noticed or not....I have to mention it because structural damage was the first thing that came to mind.

[JEP]

Cya !

[jrh]

Originally Posted by FlyingNole

So today I watch him come in and do a touch and go and climb out with full flaps...THe plane was barely climbing and rocking back and forth maybe 100ft or so off the ground. It then sank, and my student and I thought it was gonna crash. We then heard more power getting applied and you could see the flaps finally starting to go up. On the next round it looked like they were trying multiple touch and go's (like touching down getting a 200ft up or so and setting in back down)...When they touched down the 2nd time you could unmistakenly hear and see the tail smacking the ground.

With regard to the full flap takeoff: There might be more to this situation than meets the eye. Maybe he was intentionally showing the student how it is hard to control the aircraft when departing with full flaps. Maybe the student forgot to retract the flaps during the touch and go and the instructor didn't say anything in order to make the student realize their own mistake, thus remembering to retract flaps in the future. A lot of good instructors let students "dig themselves a hole" in order to drive home the point of why you can't always get away with such-and-such when flying. Taking it to the edge like that might require nerves of steel, which old timers typically have.

With regard to the tail strike: Structural damage is something to be considered, but it would take a LOT of force to do damage. Of course I didn't see how hard they hit or how long they drug the tail, but if the tiedown loop is just scraped, I don't think that's enough force to cause damage. Look at the tiedown loops on just about any trainer aircraft and you'll see them worn down from brief tail strikes.

I've only had one tail strike. It was in a 152 with a student performing a simulated soft field takeoff. He held full aft elevator a little too long, over-rotated, and the tail struck at the start of the takeoff roll. It was obvious that there was a tail strike, you couldn't miss it. The entire aircraft vibrated slightly and there was a loud scraping sound. No damage was done though.

All of that being said, there's nothing wrong with talking to the chief CFI and getting their take on the situation. You've seen some things that may or may not be a safety issue so you're letting them know. If they feel the need to take further action, that's their responsibility. I don't think anybody can fault you for caring about safety.

[scramjet]

On the flaps part, I once landed a Cessna 172 with no flaps down. I was a newbie student and I misunderstood the instructor's commands and retracted the flaps. We never noticed until we had a bad landing.