Annoying flight today in Colorado

Timbuff10 · April 1st, 2006, 02:07

Gotta vent...

Seems the weekend warriors took to the skies a day early this week. It was a bumpy day as I was trying to teach slow flight to one of my students. He wasn't doing too good with his altitude and airspeed and I thought he was struggling but when I took the controls for a minute I decided that it was just too turbulent to get anything out of doing slow flight.

We then headed to Longmont for some uncontrolled field work and to see if we could get him landing the plane. Well we listened to CTAF for about 7 minutes as we headed to the airport making the appropriate calls. We decided there was only one other plane in the pattern but since radios are not required we were still on the lookout as we entered the 45. The one guy in the pattern is turning final as we are entering the downwind. All of a sudden some guy in a Cub looking thing zips right in front of us in the downwind as we are entering from the 45. I pull out and do a 360 to get back in with proper spacing. Ok no biggie, lets do it again and re enter on the 45 and make the proper radio calls to let everyone know what we are doing. The cub looking thing lands in front of us, and an arrow takes off after him. We come in and do an OK landing, was hoping the student would hold the nose off more but not bad as we are just learning to land. Anyway we take off and climb out. Just as I make a call saying we are on the upwind I see a black dot off to my right streak across and at the same time some guy calls out that he is entering the pattern into the downwind. Mind you he is currently left crosswind saying this. I seriously doubt he noticed that he almost hit us. The arrow that took off in front of us which I was following then calls out saying he has traffic right next to him in the downwind (he is talking about the moron doing the phantom entry). The arrow then does a 360 in the downwind to get away from the nitwit that crossed in front of me and did the funky entry. I am getting upset a tad as my lesson of flying the pattern is going down the tubes. We then turn left base and are pretty much on a collision course for the arrow that had to do dodge the moron. Of course we lose the arrow since he went above us a tad and I decided it was time to just get out of the area and try to re enter the pattern in 5 minutes. We then depart the pattern to the north as I hear the moron guy that started it all call out that he is now doing a short approach and asks the guy at the hold short line to hold off on his take off.

I wanted to go land, get out and kick this guy straight in the ass. Anyway, we ended up north of the field and about that time 3 other planes enter the pattern so we then decide to head south and go back to jeffco to get our touch and goes in a more controlled class D environment. Well it gets better...

We try to make our first call to tower at 10 miles out and finally at about 4 and a half miles out we are able to get a word in and are finally cleared to land on 11L (this was after asking for touch and goes which are rarely allowd on 11L). Finally I get it straightend out with tower that we can do touch and goes but we are now sent to 11R. Ok, no biggie, we then end up in the pattern with 4 other planes, at least one of which says student pilot after every call, not that there is anything at all wrong with that. Our first trip in, we are told to go straight to the numbers. So much for showing the student what a pattern looks like on that pass. We fly an improvised pattern and come in fast but still manage a touch and go. after that we are then told to do left traffic, I question that as we are on the right runway and we then get right traffic. We fly this pattern getting the extended downwind which still makes it a abnormal pattern but it kinda works out and we get an ok landing. We then decide we had enough of the bumps, and traffic woes and want a full stop. Tower clears us for a full stop but wants us to land long so we can exit immediately at the end of the runway so another plane can land. Ok, again I explain to the student how you shouldn't be doing this if you are solo, yadda yadda. We land long as requested and get off at the right taxiway but are told to hold short of the main runway that all the fancy jets land on. We are holding short of 11L and I am trying to answer some of the student's questions as a King air and a Falcon 900 lands in front of us. I am telling the student what the next call from tower is going to sound like and then it happens just as I say except the controller wants us to expidite. Ok, no problem, my student starts to answer and then freezes so I take the call and then tower comes back saying that expidite means to be rolling and responding instead of responding then rolling.

In all the flight ended up being 2.0 on the hobbs, we got one good trip around the pattern out of that whole flight, a few crappy landings, not to the fault of the student (it is hard to get a good landing out of improvised patterns like that), and a bunch of non standard stuff happening. I suppose it was a good learning experience but it really shot my lesson plan to hell and back.

Well, tomorrow is Saturday and I have two flights, be afraid!

Anyone think this kind of stuff is worthy of a NASA report? I thought about it but decided against it... Any thoughts?

Theotokos · April 1st, 2006, 03:05

Gee! I'd be so mad! Poor student though. He had to be mad. How'd he feel?

B767 · April 1st, 2006, 03:44

I'll join the rant about Jeffco too. Last weekend I had planned an xc with my dad from Meadowlake to Cheyenne, grab a bite and head back. IFR at Cheyenne..ok no go but this was the 2nd or 3rd time it was a no go. I was going to fly! So I tell my dad we're not going to CYS and can do something like 00V-BJC-PUB-00V...just get some time. I request and receive trans thru class B and they then "hand" me off to Jeffco tower..between 8 and 10 miles out. The guy is a little bit busy. However, I had been to Jeffco numerous times before and will be the first to admit that I do not think this guy is the greatest controller. I could not jump in and announce my intentions right away so I wait for a break. First time "Jeffco twr, Cherokee 369, 8 out inbnd touch and goes." No reply. Next break "Jeffco twr, Cherokee 369, inbnd 6 out." Again, no reply. I was at 8500 crossing the final paths for the 29's. I tried to get in one or two more times and again nothing. Finally, 4th or 5th, maybe 6th, attempt I get a reply followed by "You're not supposed to be within 5nm without talking to me (or something like that)." I realize that, indeed, I am the one to blame for this because I could have circled around waiting for a response first, but needless to say I was not that happy at the time. Then there was a pos shift and a female took over...one who I believe is a great controller and handles the pos well. Did two touch and goes then left for PUB with no other complications the rest of the flight.

jrh · April 1st, 2006, 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

Anyone think this kind of stuff is worthy of a NASA report? I thought about it but decided against it... Any thoughts?

Sounds like you had one heck of a flight!

I wouldn't bother with a NASA report though. You never did anything wrong, so you don't need immunity from anything, and the FAA can't really improve the safety of anything involved. Busy airports are sometimes chaotic no matter what procedures are in place.

flyover · April 1st, 2006, 07:42

Quote:

Any thoughts?

The sooner you learn to get rid of the emotions in your flying, the much better pilot you'll be. Think about it. Would you want an angry/upset surgeon operating on you? Would you want to be in the back of a jet being flown by an angry/upset captain? Do you want to be on the road with angry/upset people? The difference between someone that gets upset at the little things and one who doesn't is: professionalism. (Getting cut off in the pattern by a moron is a little thing, colliding with a moron is a big thing.)

Deal with each situation as it comes up. Cooly and calmly. Then move on to the next one. You'll also be setting a tremendous example for your students.

End of preaching.

pilotnate23 · April 1st, 2006, 09:40

Unfortunately, that's just the reality of flying at uncontrolled fields. I've seen many stupid things like that...but filing a NASA report seemed a waste of my time in those situations.

- Nate

Timbuff10 · April 1st, 2006, 17:52

Looking back on this flight I think it was actually really productive now. A lot of stuff happened that you can't really simulate and my student agreed that he thought it was good to see that kind of stuff as it just isn't on the syllabus. I know that he knows why it is important to enter on the 45 now.

When I was flying though, I kept my cool and got us out of there without sweating it too much. I mean it was annoying but I think I handled it well and didn't let any emotions drive any decisions I was making. I don't really mind if someone cuts me off in the pattern, I just don't like it when my life is put in danger so some guy can maybe save point one on the hobbs and land first. I do wish I got his tail # though.

About Jeffco, I was going in to land today and was told to turn a short final if I wanted 29R since there was other straight in traffic. Are these airports in bed with the businesses that bring Jets in? I know Jets use a lot of fuel but it seems like GA trainer planes just get the short end of the stick alot of times. I can understand that a 172 is doing training and could use a tour of the airport from time to time but it is kind of annoying when you have to constantly adjust everything because a bizjet is on final and can't be bothered with a go-around or slowing up for spacing.

Oh well, I had fun flying today and gave a really productive lesson. Too bad this big old CB formed over the airport after lunch and cxld my other lesson.

junior · April 1st, 2006, 18:44

yeah. it was like a dog fight up there today.

junior · April 1st, 2006, 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyover

Would you want to be in the back of a jet being flown by an angry/upset captain?

keep taking away their pensions. cutting their pay et.. and soon enough one of them will bury a jet into a mountain.

Van_Hoolio · April 3rd, 2006, 21:32

Isn't Longmont the place with the crazy anti-airport neighbor?

Mike

MidlifeFlyer · April 4th, 2006, 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van_Hoolio

Isn't Longmont the place with the crazy anti-airport neighbor?

Mike

Every airport has at least one crazy airport neightbor.

April 1st, 2006, 02:07	#1
Timbuff10 Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Coloradan in Orange County, CA Posts: 3,235	Annoying flight today in Colorado Gotta vent... Seems the weekend warriors took to the skies a day early this week. It was a bumpy day as I was trying to teach slow flight to one of my students. He wasn't doing too good with his altitude and airspeed and I thought he was struggling but when I took the controls for a minute I decided that it was just too turbulent to get anything out of doing slow flight. We then headed to Longmont for some uncontrolled field work and to see if we could get him landing the plane. Well we listened to CTAF for about 7 minutes as we headed to the airport making the appropriate calls. We decided there was only one other plane in the pattern but since radios are not required we were still on the lookout as we entered the 45. The one guy in the pattern is turning final as we are entering the downwind. All of a sudden some guy in a Cub looking thing zips right in front of us in the downwind as we are entering from the 45. I pull out and do a 360 to get back in with proper spacing. Ok no biggie, lets do it again and re enter on the 45 and make the proper radio calls to let everyone know what we are doing. The cub looking thing lands in front of us, and an arrow takes off after him. We come in and do an OK landing, was hoping the student would hold the nose off more but not bad as we are just learning to land. Anyway we take off and climb out. Just as I make a call saying we are on the upwind I see a black dot off to my right streak across and at the same time some guy calls out that he is entering the pattern into the downwind. Mind you he is currently left crosswind saying this. I seriously doubt he noticed that he almost hit us. The arrow that took off in front of us which I was following then calls out saying he has traffic right next to him in the downwind (he is talking about the moron doing the phantom entry). The arrow then does a 360 in the downwind to get away from the nitwit that crossed in front of me and did the funky entry. I am getting upset a tad as my lesson of flying the pattern is going down the tubes. We then turn left base and are pretty much on a collision course for the arrow that had to do dodge the moron. Of course we lose the arrow since he went above us a tad and I decided it was time to just get out of the area and try to re enter the pattern in 5 minutes. We then depart the pattern to the north as I hear the moron guy that started it all call out that he is now doing a short approach and asks the guy at the hold short line to hold off on his take off. I wanted to go land, get out and kick this guy straight in the ass. Anyway, we ended up north of the field and about that time 3 other planes enter the pattern so we then decide to head south and go back to jeffco to get our touch and goes in a more controlled class D environment. Well it gets better... We try to make our first call to tower at 10 miles out and finally at about 4 and a half miles out we are able to get a word in and are finally cleared to land on 11L (this was after asking for touch and goes which are rarely allowd on 11L). Finally I get it straightend out with tower that we can do touch and goes but we are now sent to 11R. Ok, no biggie, we then end up in the pattern with 4 other planes, at least one of which says student pilot after every call, not that there is anything at all wrong with that. Our first trip in, we are told to go straight to the numbers. So much for showing the student what a pattern looks like on that pass. We fly an improvised pattern and come in fast but still manage a touch and go. after that we are then told to do left traffic, I question that as we are on the right runway and we then get right traffic. We fly this pattern getting the extended downwind which still makes it a abnormal pattern but it kinda works out and we get an ok landing. We then decide we had enough of the bumps, and traffic woes and want a full stop. Tower clears us for a full stop but wants us to land long so we can exit immediately at the end of the runway so another plane can land. Ok, again I explain to the student how you shouldn't be doing this if you are solo, yadda yadda. We land long as requested and get off at the right taxiway but are told to hold short of the main runway that all the fancy jets land on. We are holding short of 11L and I am trying to answer some of the student's questions as a King air and a Falcon 900 lands in front of us. I am telling the student what the next call from tower is going to sound like and then it happens just as I say except the controller wants us to expidite. Ok, no problem, my student starts to answer and then freezes so I take the call and then tower comes back saying that expidite means to be rolling and responding instead of responding then rolling. In all the flight ended up being 2.0 on the hobbs, we got one good trip around the pattern out of that whole flight, a few crappy landings, not to the fault of the student (it is hard to get a good landing out of improvised patterns like that), and a bunch of non standard stuff happening. I suppose it was a good learning experience but it really shot my lesson plan to hell and back. Well, tomorrow is Saturday and I have two flights, be afraid! Anyone think this kind of stuff is worthy of a NASA report? I thought about it but decided against it... Any thoughts? __________________ My Photography My Airliners.net photos

April 1st, 2006, 03:44	#3
B767 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: COS Posts: 270	I'll join the rant about Jeffco too. Last weekend I had planned an xc with my dad from Meadowlake to Cheyenne, grab a bite and head back. IFR at Cheyenne..ok no go but this was the 2nd or 3rd time it was a no go. I was going to fly! So I tell my dad we're not going to CYS and can do something like 00V-BJC-PUB-00V...just get some time. I request and receive trans thru class B and they then "hand" me off to Jeffco tower..between 8 and 10 miles out. The guy is a little bit busy. However, I had been to Jeffco numerous times before and will be the first to admit that I do not think this guy is the greatest controller. I could not jump in and announce my intentions right away so I wait for a break. First time "Jeffco twr, Cherokee 369, 8 out inbnd touch and goes." No reply. Next break "Jeffco twr, Cherokee 369, inbnd 6 out." Again, no reply. I was at 8500 crossing the final paths for the 29's. I tried to get in one or two more times and again nothing. Finally, 4th or 5th, maybe 6th, attempt I get a reply followed by "You're not supposed to be within 5nm without talking to me (or something like that)." I realize that, indeed, I am the one to blame for this because I could have circled around waiting for a response first, but needless to say I was not that happy at the time. Then there was a pos shift and a female took over...one who I believe is a great controller and handles the pos well. Did two touch and goes then left for PUB with no other complications the rest of the flight. __________________ You can count on me to always be two beats behind every conversation! Superman owns a pair of B767 pajamas "Well, they built the 2006 Dodge Caravan to replace the 2005 and earlier Dodge Caravans, but they're still on the road..." - DT

April 1st, 2006, 09:40	#6
pilotnate23 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: SD Posts: 98	Unfortunately, that's just the reality of flying at uncontrolled fields. I've seen many stupid things like that...but filing a NASA report seemed a waste of my time in those situations. - Nate __________________ "Two things make an airplane fly: airspeed and money"

April 1st, 2006, 17:52	#7
Timbuff10 Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Coloradan in Orange County, CA Posts: 3,235	Looking back on this flight I think it was actually really productive now. A lot of stuff happened that you can't really simulate and my student agreed that he thought it was good to see that kind of stuff as it just isn't on the syllabus. I know that he knows why it is important to enter on the 45 now. When I was flying though, I kept my cool and got us out of there without sweating it too much. I mean it was annoying but I think I handled it well and didn't let any emotions drive any decisions I was making. I don't really mind if someone cuts me off in the pattern, I just don't like it when my life is put in danger so some guy can maybe save point one on the hobbs and land first. I do wish I got his tail # though. About Jeffco, I was going in to land today and was told to turn a short final if I wanted 29R since there was other straight in traffic. Are these airports in bed with the businesses that bring Jets in? I know Jets use a lot of fuel but it seems like GA trainer planes just get the short end of the stick alot of times. I can understand that a 172 is doing training and could use a tour of the airport from time to time but it is kind of annoying when you have to constantly adjust everything because a bizjet is on final and can't be bothered with a go-around or slowing up for spacing. Oh well, I had fun flying today and gave a really productive lesson. Too bad this big old CB formed over the airport after lunch and cxld my other lesson. __________________ My Photography My Airliners.net photos

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April 1st, 2006, 03:05	#2
Theotokos Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: BRY/KLOU/KSDF Posts: 481	Gee! I'd be so mad! Poor student though. He had to be mad. How'd he feel?

April 1st, 2006, 18:44	#8
junior Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: CO Posts: 427	yeah. it was like a dog fight up there today.

April 3rd, 2006, 21:32	#10
Van_Hoolio Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Des Moines, Iowa (based in IAH) Posts: 1,077	Isn't Longmont the place with the crazy anti-airport neighbor? Mike