Age discriminated against?

Chris_Ford · March 7th, 2006, 16:14

Okay, so the title isn't exactly what I'm talking about, but it's the closest I can think of for this situation.

Any of you younger (<25) CFI guys ever have issues with people not wanting to get their license with you because of your age? The reason I ask this is because yesterday, a second student in the past six months has opted to go with the older (50+) instructor rather than myself, after I went through the trouble of sitting down and explaining everything to them, even going on a discovery flight. They both cited "I'd rather not fly with a younger instructor" as their reason.

How do you folks deal with it? Of course, there's nothing you really can do but smile, but do you feel insulted that someone thinks you're not competant/professional/good enough to instruct them, solely because you weren't around when horses were the primary means of transport?

jtrain609 · March 7th, 2006, 16:21

Running into it right now actually, don't care for it.

EatSleepFly · March 7th, 2006, 16:43

I got my CFI when I was 19 (23 now) and probably looked even younger.

When I was instructing full time, I only remember having one student have a problem with my age- and he didn't come out and say it, it was evident in his attitude.

I sat him down and told him I was his instructor and asked if he had any concerns. He conceded that it was awkward having an instructor half his age. I politely reviewed his options with him, which were: he could either attempt to teach himself to fly IFR, get a new instructor, or continue with me and get over it. He got over it.

It's all in your attitude. Be professional, dress professional, act professional, and KNOW YOUR STUFF.

And for the love of god Chris Ford, don't debate with your students like you do on here.

It's only a problem if you make it one. If older students don't want to fly with you because of your age, reassign them to the worst (older) instructor at your school, and go recruit some new students.

AP2B · March 7th, 2006, 17:04

Man, that sucks. To get my moneys worth out of an instructor they need to be motivated, confident, and still enjoy instructing. From my experience these instructors were the youngest ones. I'm 26 not 46 though. Maybe they feel they can't relate to you young cats.

Chris, I don't know your exact level of experience, nor do I really care. I have no doubt in your abilities as an instructor. Hopefully this spring/summer we can knock out my Instrument Rating and have some good flying fun in the process.

John H., Maybe you could come on up and do some quasi stage checks on my progress. Then we could all go paint ballin' or what ever people in Texas do when they visit Indiana.

Goldmember · March 7th, 2006, 17:41

People are always going to have that thing with age man, no matter what profession you're in . I'm a 24 year old financial planner/mortgage broker and often times older, wealthier people don't likethe fact that I'm young. Even my business referral sources often on ly look outward. My boss even went as far as to ask me to grow a goatee and get fake glasses to look older...no way...

I've found if you address it up front you'll be fine. I start, as you did, by asking if they have any concerns and if they don't we move on. If they do, i rattle off my qualifications and use a lighthearted joke about my age and give em the guilt trip. As long as you can relate to someone, you'll be fine. My guess is the old fart is stuck in his ways and he and you are lible not to get along anyway which is never good for instructing. ...my .02

Chris_Ford · March 7th, 2006, 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

It's all in your attitude. Be professional, dress professional, act professional, and KNOW YOUR STUFF.

And for the love of god Chris Ford, don't debate with your students like you do on here.

Check, check, check and check. As for the debating thing, there's nothing to debate when I make the rules 100%

. The problem arises is that both of these people have come in when I wasn't there to start scheduling, and they raise their concerns then. Our school, not wanting to delay the scheduling and potentially lose a customer, acquiesces to his desires and schedules him with the other instructor (There are only two of us in our rinkadink operation).

notawannabee · March 7th, 2006, 18:18

First and foremost, they are the customer, and they are shellin' out alot of money for this endeavor. If it were another young instructor besides yourself, they would have likely passed on them as well. They probably would have passed even if the instructor was even more knowledgeable and pleasant than yourself ( not that it's possible...no I'm not being sarcastic). So, in my opinion, NO, you should not take it personally, and definately shouldn't be insulted.

MidlifeFlyer · March 7th, 2006, 18:28

Keep in mind that it's not necessarily an indication of the potential student's feeling about the young instructor's competence. Especially for the older student, learning to fly has less to do with career aspirations than with fun.

The priorities are different and the choice of instructor may have more to do with personal connection than anything else.

Chris_Ford · March 7th, 2006, 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Keep in mind that it's not necessarily an indication of the potential student's feeling about the young instructor's competence. Especially for the older student, learning to fly has less to do with career aspirations than with fun.

True, but picking an instructor you've never met purely on the assumption that the 21 year old won't be fun to fly with??

BoilerPilot2007 · March 7th, 2006, 19:38

Chris,

I think its perfectly normal for the older students to relate with an older instructor. Try not to take it personally.

Keep in mind, younger students would probably prefer to train with you, rather than the 50+ instructor.

Chris_Ford · March 7th, 2006, 19:39

Given our airplane's demographic, it's making it hard for me to make a buck...

No breakfast tomorrow, Evan, .... pies for breakfast!

Cactus_Cutter · March 7th, 2006, 21:14

Too hot, Too cold. Too young, too old.

Aviation just like other careers is funny like that.

Some people will not choose young instructors because they are viewed as inexperienced.

Some regionals absolutely will not hire from the 30 something crowd because they view them as possibly not taking the position seriously thus possibly failing while in training. Tell that to the 30 something with a solid past employment in a career oriented field or the 30 something that has a family to support.

When I was in Tech in certain companies viewed anyone over 24 as a useless senior citizen no matter how extensive their background in that field. Today, 80% of those companies are no longer in business.

LouieP · March 7th, 2006, 21:55

Chris I'm with you on this one. I'm also 21. In fact my first CFI job I was still only 20. I have never ran into this problem personally but I have heard of it before. Although I'm 21 now I bet a lot of people who meet me the first time think I look about 16. As far as I'm concerned if someone doesn't want to fly with me then thats fine it's their money. But bottom line I did the same stuff that the 50 year old CFI did to get my ticket.

jrh · March 8th, 2006, 03:25

I've flown with everybody from guys barely out of high school to a 50-something woman working on her commercial ticket. So far, nobody's been openly bothered by my age (21 now, 20 when I started).

Like EatSleepFly mentioned, I try to act professional and know my stuff. That goes a long way.

On top of that, I try to adapt to every student. The way I act when I'm with a 19-year-old college girl is different than when I'm with a 29-year-old attorney, which is also different from when I'm with a 39-year-old construction contractor. It's not like I'm an entirely different person, but I definitely try to read each student and behave accordingly. Generally speaking, I'm a little more serious and "businesslike" with the older students. They want to have fun, but they also want to get a job done. Younger students want somebody who can joke around with them and keep the learning interesting.

It all goes back to relating to the students. I do my best not to not act like a young punk college kid when I fly with adults and not act like an anal old guy when I fly with high school kids. It's been working for me so far.

aloft · March 8th, 2006, 05:56

Gee Chris, I can't imagine why anyone would pass up the opportunity to have you as a flight instructor! It must be age discrimination!

Chris_Ford · March 8th, 2006, 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by aloft

Gee Chris, I can't imagine why anyone would pass up the opportunity to have you as a flight instructor! It must be age discrimination!

Hey, at least I can fit with someone else in the airplane.

What's it going to take for you to stop following me around and just commenting mindless drivel within my threads? You're the posterboy for postnatal abortion if I've ever seen one. One would think that at your age, you'd be mature enough to just ignore me, and not make a big deal out of it, rather than make it a part of your signature and follow me around from thread to thread while you allegedly ignore me.

What I posted was 100% valid and it has nothing to do with people making these decisions based on my attitude (which isn't quite the same as how I am on JC, but, I digress), it was people making uninformed decisions based solely on my age immediately after (or even before) meeting me based on "what they've heard from others". Both of them have cited "friends" who say "go with the older instructor because they won't just bail on you". Knowing that might be a concern, I always try to point out to people that I'm still only a junior at Purdue and I'm "contractually obligated" to stay in Indiana for at least another 1+ year(s).

mtsu_av8er · March 8th, 2006, 10:25

Young John, Young Chris - it'sll be alright. Like alot of things, it's just what a student prefers. When somebody tells me that, I'm totally cool with it. Personally, as a student, I didn't like flying with anybody OLDER than the age of 30. Just my preference!

For every older student that doesn't want to fly with you, there's a younger student that PREFERS to fly with you. After a while (hopefully), you'll develop a reputation as a fine instructor. Then, you'll have people calling you on the phone, asking for you by name, and really not caring about your age.

BTW, it's really nice when they tell you that they're not sure about flying with, " . . . colored boys".

bike21 · March 8th, 2006, 10:46

Back to the subject at hand...

I've seen it too and dealt with it. No fun. And it dosen't stop at CFI'ing either. The other night a lady got on board in ORD and wanted to say hello to us up front. We turned around and waved, then she said "oh, I like to see gray hair up front, fly safe now" Grrr!!!!!

We were both like...WTFO!!! I wanted to say, "NOW we are going to fly safe because you said to do so"

The best thing you can do is always be professional through and through. Smile and nod!

MidlifeFlyer · March 8th, 2006, 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

True, but picking an instructor you've never met purely on the assumption that the 21 year old won't be fun to fly with??

Sure. Why not?

I wouldn't. I'd rather hang out with a 21 year old than some old fart my age - what a downer! Besides, I'd rather have someone with good reflexes when I get in an airplane

But plenty would pick the oldster for exactly that reason. Expecting more in common to relate to.

I don't understand the surprise. Are you saying that you don't know any young people who would avoid some old fart on the assumption that a younger instructor would be much more fun to be with and have far more in common with them?

If you really feel you are being discriminated against because of your youth, get over it. After all, it's only temporary.

notawannabee · March 8th, 2006, 16:34

It's temporary for now, but wait till you get OLDER. That's when it really starts to bite !

Chris_Ford · March 8th, 2006, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

For every older student that doesn't want to fly with you, there's a younger student that PREFERS to fly with you.

Guess it's just our demographic working against us. With our airplane, we're not getting many 16-20 year olds looking to fly...

aloft · March 9th, 2006, 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Hey, at least I can fit with someone else in the airplane.

Nice...because we all know that that sort of discrimination is still 100% legal....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

What's it going to take for you to stop following me around and just commenting mindless drivel within my threads? You're the posterboy for postnatal abortion if I've ever seen one. One would think that at your age, you'd be mature enough to just ignore me, and not make a big deal out of it, rather than make it a part of your signature and follow me around from thread to thread while you allegedly ignore me.

What I posted was 100% valid and it has nothing to do with people making these decisions based on my attitude (which isn't quite the same as how I am on JC, but, I digress)

Chris, I don't think you have a clue as to how abrasive your attitude is, nor when it's engaged and when it isn't. The fact that you seem to think it's okay to act differently here than you claim to IRL simply proves that you don't understand how important it is to get along with everyone in this industry. It's just too small to think that you can get away with being a d*ck when you feel like it. This field is all about networking, man; don't think that because the bridges you see built via this site seem "virtual" to you, that they're not subject to being burnt. I'm just trying to help you out, here; dudes have had newhire class dates rescinded due to stuff they'd previously posted online. I've seen it happen more than once.

Chris_Ford · March 9th, 2006, 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by aloft

Chris, I don't think you have a clue as to how abrasive your attitude is, nor when it's engaged and when it isn't. The fact that you seem to think it's okay to act differently here than you claim to IRL simply proves that you don't understand how important it is to get along with everyone in this industry. It's just too small to think that you can get away with being a d*ck when you feel like it. This field is all about networking, man; don't think that because the bridges you see built via this site seem "virtual" to you, that they're not subject to being burnt. I'm just trying to help you out, here; dudes have had newhire class dates rescinded due to stuff they'd previously posted online. I've seen it happen more than once.

Is that what you call tact? You're as subtle as a brick in the small of my back. The way to go about that would've been to PM me your concerns rather than follow me through every thread and post BS and try and make me the JC whipping boy. I do believe the impetus to all this was dropping my name in a thread a month or so ago that I had not posted in, and you decided to use me as the posterchild for what's wrong in the industry (despite the fact that you based this opinion on nothing other than pure conjecture). You've dropped the "scab" word on me based on another factless opinion. You're not there to "help" me, Matt, you're committing character assassination.

I'll admit that sometimes I do go (purposefully) overboard, but you'll notice that I try to limit that to the political threads, because a lot of fallacious logic is thrown around there. I'm a proponent of considering all sides of an issue rather than make rampant generalizations. However, you'll notice that I do! make rampant generalizations, and you see how absurd they are, right? That's exactly the point, to show that people making similar generalizations are sometimes being absurd, even if it's consensual amongst societal mores. (I hate being one of those "name droppers" but by reading Jonathan Swift, you'd understand my POV/writing style a lot more). The internet should help us foster discussion amongst both sides of an issue rather than hinder it. You'd be surprised by the PMs or AOL IMs I get saying, "Thanks for saying that, I wanted to say it, but the debate was so one-sided... I thought I was going crazy!" or similar

As far as I'm concerned, having an opinion about something shouldn't burn any bridges. However, I realize that others hold differing values and it may bother people that I try to triumph unpopular ideas. However, there's a difference in handling it maturely. For example, John Herreshof and I got off to a rough start (admittedly my fault) and while we often argue, I think if we were put in a room together, we'd get along fine. So to those people who did take care of this professionally and maturely(those ignoring me, though this is futile), Lloyd and I believe Acadia, I'll apologize for anything that has truly offended, because that has never been my intention. To those who lower themselves (maybe raise themselves, I don't know how low you are) to name calling and a mind-numbing display of e-hubris, I have no remorse.

Edit: And I have been trying to chill it off a bit, but it's sort of difficult when you've become the whipping boy "conservative" on the board, when all I'm opposed to is blatent partisanship

N8389P · March 10th, 2006, 19:09

I was 18 when I was CFI'ing and everyone wanted to fly with me

Cactus_Cutter · March 10th, 2006, 23:44

Whoaa, a little too much salt in today's lunch?

March 7th, 2006, 16:14	#1
Chris_Ford Banned Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 7,329	Age discriminated against? Okay, so the title isn't exactly what I'm talking about, but it's the closest I can think of for this situation. Any of you younger (<25) CFI guys ever have issues with people not wanting to get their license with you because of your age? The reason I ask this is because yesterday, a second student in the past six months has opted to go with the older (50+) instructor rather than myself, after I went through the trouble of sitting down and explaining everything to them, even going on a discovery flight. They both cited "I'd rather not fly with a younger instructor" as their reason. How do you folks deal with it? Of course, there's nothing you really can do but smile, but do you feel insulted that someone thinks you're not competant/professional/good enough to instruct them, solely because you weren't around when horses were the primary means of transport?

March 7th, 2006, 16:21	#2
jtrain609 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Park City, UT Posts: 12,322	Running into it right now actually, don't care for it. __________________

March 7th, 2006, 16:43	#3
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	I got my CFI when I was 19 (23 now) and probably looked even younger. When I was instructing full time, I only remember having one student have a problem with my age- and he didn't come out and say it, it was evident in his attitude. I sat him down and told him I was his instructor and asked if he had any concerns. He conceded that it was awkward having an instructor half his age. I politely reviewed his options with him, which were: he could either attempt to teach himself to fly IFR, get a new instructor, or continue with me and get over it. He got over it. It's all in your attitude. Be professional, dress professional, act professional, and KNOW YOUR STUFF. And for the love of god Chris Ford, don't debate with your students like you do on here. It's only a problem if you make it one. If older students don't want to fly with you because of your age, reassign them to the worst (older) instructor at your school, and go recruit some new students. __________________

March 7th, 2006, 17:41	#5
Goldmember Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Louisville, KY. Posts: 150	People are always going to have that thing with age man, no matter what profession you're in . I'm a 24 year old financial planner/mortgage broker and often times older, wealthier people don't likethe fact that I'm young. Even my business referral sources often on ly look outward. My boss even went as far as to ask me to grow a goatee and get fake glasses to look older...no way... I've found if you address it up front you'll be fine. I start, as you did, by asking if they have any concerns and if they don't we move on. If they do, i rattle off my qualifications and use a lighthearted joke about my age and give em the guilt trip. As long as you can relate to someone, you'll be fine. My guess is the old fart is stuck in his ways and he and you are lible not to get along anyway which is never good for instructing. ...my .02 __________________ What are we going to do tonight brain? --Same thing we do every night Pinky, try and take over the world.

March 7th, 2006, 18:28	#8
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,976	Keep in mind that it's not necessarily an indication of the potential student's feeling about the young instructor's competence. Especially for the older student, learning to fly has less to do with career aspirations than with fun. The priorities are different and the choice of instructor may have more to do with personal connection than anything else. __________________ Mark www.midlifeflight.com "I don't understand" doesn't mean it's gray

March 7th, 2006, 17:04	#4
AP2B Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The IND SOC / TYQ Posts: 620	Man, that sucks. To get my moneys worth out of an instructor they need to be motivated, confident, and still enjoy instructing. From my experience these instructors were the youngest ones. I'm 26 not 46 though. Maybe they feel they can't relate to you young cats. Chris, I don't know your exact level of experience, nor do I really care. I have no doubt in your abilities as an instructor. Hopefully this spring/summer we can knock out my Instrument Rating and have some good flying fun in the process. John H., Maybe you could come on up and do some quasi stage checks on my progress. Then we could all go paint ballin' or what ever people in Texas do when they visit Indiana.

March 7th, 2006, 18:18	#7
notawannabee Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 217	First and foremost, they are the customer, and they are shellin' out alot of money for this endeavor. If it were another young instructor besides yourself, they would have likely passed on them as well. They probably would have passed even if the instructor was even more knowledgeable and pleasant than yourself ( not that it's possible...no I'm not being sarcastic). So, in my opinion, NO, you should not take it personally, and definately shouldn't be insulted.

March 7th, 2006, 19:38	#10
BoilerPilot2007 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 444	Chris, I think its perfectly normal for the older students to relate with an older instructor. Try not to take it personally. Keep in mind, younger students would probably prefer to train with you, rather than the 50+ instructor. __________________ http://www.setlovefree.com

March 7th, 2006, 19:39	#11
Chris_Ford Banned Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 7,329	Given our airplane's demographic, it's making it hard for me to make a buck... No breakfast tomorrow, Evan, .... pies for breakfast!

March 7th, 2006, 21:14	#12
Cactus_Cutter Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Vortexing Dust in Doug’s Backyard… Posts: 190	Too hot, Too cold. Too young, too old. Aviation just like other careers is funny like that. Some people will not choose young instructors because they are viewed as inexperienced. Some regionals absolutely will not hire from the 30 something crowd because they view them as possibly not taking the position seriously thus possibly failing while in training. Tell that to the 30 something with a solid past employment in a career oriented field or the 30 something that has a family to support. When I was in Tech in certain companies viewed anyone over 24 as a useless senior citizen no matter how extensive their background in that field. Today, 80% of those companies are no longer in business.

March 7th, 2006, 21:55	#13
LouieP Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 112	Chris I'm with you on this one. I'm also 21. In fact my first CFI job I was still only 20. I have never ran into this problem personally but I have heard of it before. Although I'm 21 now I bet a lot of people who meet me the first time think I look about 16. As far as I'm concerned if someone doesn't want to fly with me then thats fine it's their money. But bottom line I did the same stuff that the 50 year old CFI did to get my ticket.

March 8th, 2006, 03:25	#14
jrh Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 1,720	I've flown with everybody from guys barely out of high school to a 50-something woman working on her commercial ticket. So far, nobody's been openly bothered by my age (21 now, 20 when I started). Like EatSleepFly mentioned, I try to act professional and know my stuff. That goes a long way. On top of that, I try to adapt to every student. The way I act when I'm with a 19-year-old college girl is different than when I'm with a 29-year-old attorney, which is also different from when I'm with a 39-year-old construction contractor. It's not like I'm an entirely different person, but I definitely try to read each student and behave accordingly. Generally speaking, I'm a little more serious and "businesslike" with the older students. They want to have fun, but they also want to get a job done. Younger students want somebody who can joke around with them and keep the learning interesting. It all goes back to relating to the students. I do my best not to not act like a young punk college kid when I fly with adults and not act like an anal old guy when I fly with high school kids. It's been working for me so far.

March 8th, 2006, 05:56	#15
aloft Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Inside your OODA loop Posts: 6,849	Gee Chris, I can't imagine why anyone would pass up the opportunity to have you as a flight instructor! It must be age discrimination! __________________ Commercial Pilot, ASEL/AMEL/IA 900+ TT/25 ME Mountain-qualified Search & Rescue/Disaster Relief Mission Pilot, Civil Air Patrol B.S., Psychology, Univ of Utah

March 8th, 2006, 10:25	#17
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,503	Young John, Young Chris - it'sll be alright. Like alot of things, it's just what a student prefers. When somebody tells me that, I'm totally cool with it. Personally, as a student, I didn't like flying with anybody OLDER than the age of 30. Just my preference! For every older student that doesn't want to fly with you, there's a younger student that PREFERS to fly with you. After a while (hopefully), you'll develop a reputation as a fine instructor. Then, you'll have people calling you on the phone, asking for you by name, and really not caring about your age. BTW, it's really nice when they tell you that they're not sure about flying with, " . . . colored boys". __________________ ------- One person says "stop gloating - life sucks!" while another says "be happy - at least you have a job!" . . . people are just stupid.

March 8th, 2006, 10:46	#18
bike21 Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: People's Republic of Boulder Posts: 2,261	Back to the subject at hand... I've seen it too and dealt with it. No fun. And it dosen't stop at CFI'ing either. The other night a lady got on board in ORD and wanted to say hello to us up front. We turned around and waved, then she said "oh, I like to see gray hair up front, fly safe now" Grrr!!!!! We were both like...WTFO!!! I wanted to say, "NOW we are going to fly safe because you said to do so" The best thing you can do is always be professional through and through. Smile and nod! __________________ Free SAPA! (and Tibet) ____________________ www.glenntilton.com

March 8th, 2006, 16:34	#20
notawannabee Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 217	It's temporary for now, but wait till you get OLDER. That's when it really starts to bite !

March 10th, 2006, 19:09	#24
N8389P Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: KAPV AppleValley Posts: 126	I was 18 when I was CFI'ing and everyone wanted to fly with me

March 10th, 2006, 23:44	#25
Cactus_Cutter Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Vortexing Dust in Doug’s Backyard… Posts: 190	Whoaa, a little too much salt in today's lunch? __________________ Regional Pilot - 3 Times the Jepps for 1/3 the Pay...

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