300nm X-country for Comercial

[KennPilot]

Ok guys (and gals) he is the question:

Do I have to do my 300nm X-country VFR or can I go IFR?
I am an instrument rated pilot and I have read the regs and nowhere does it specifically say that the flight must be done VFR. Both 2 hour X-countries specifically say that they have to be done VFR but the long one doesn't even seem to imply it. When I asked around my flight school the only answer I got was that it was "implied" because some flight examiner they knew of said that it is. Since I am instrument rated why would it matter if I did it VFR or IFR? My concern is that with the weather down here in ORL (and all of FL) being the way it is and having to take off of work and schedule the plane etc..... I just want to go when I want to go and not have to wait for the "perfect" 6-8 hours to pull it off.

Any input and/or experiences with this?

Thanks.

[PanJet]

You're correct. The FARs do not say anything about VFR except for the two dual XC's (day and night). I went actual for a short time during my long XC and the examiner didn't even question it. I'm sure you'd be fine.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by KennPilot

Do I have to do my 300nm X-country VFR or can I go IFR?

You can go IFR.

A friend of mine just passed his commercial checkride and I know for sure he went into the clouds on his solo 300 mile XC. The examiner didn't care at all.

That being said, some examiners are crazy. If your examiner refuses to accept an IFR XC, there's not much you can do. You can get the FSDO involved, find a different examiner, or just give in and fly a XC that is strictly VFR. It's up to you how you want to handle it.

[hattrick]

are there other examiners that you could choose from. do you really want to do it with this guy. if this particular examiner is the one you will definately use then ask him his opinion while you are holding a set of the FARs in your hand. there is no reason why you cant do it IFR all the way. now why a lot of people like to do it VFR is because if they do it at night they can knock off some of that 5hrs of solo night vfr also required. which makes sense if your trying to save money and get things done as quick as possible. then too you may already have that one met so i would say go for it. blast off IFR and see what people say. if they try to argue whip out them trusty FARs and have them prove it. of course then theres that other part of me that as said above would ask the examiner what he thought just to be safe.

[mastermags]

Of course the safest thing to do would to just do it VFR if you get the chance. Like someone said, if the examiner doesnt agree with your interpretation of the FAR's, there's not much you can do.

[KennPilot]

OK, I'll have my instructor call the examiner that I think I am going to use (not the same guy that I mentioned in my first post, I don't think ) but that also begs the question; if I don't log any actual (assuming I get any) and I don't log the approaches, how would the examiner know? I would basically be filing IFR for the practice and experience and ease of flight but wouldn't log any IFR info in the logbook. I feel that it would be shady to this, but seriously, as an instrument rated pilot, I can't ever imagine flying VFR commercially. It is just too easy (and safer?) to file and fly IFR than it is to file and fly VFR in Florida.

[MidlifeFlyer]

The requirements that have to be VFR =say= VFR.

If the examiner thinks the 300 nm cross country has to be VFR, the examiner needs remedial training.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by KennPilot

I can't ever imagine flying VFR commercially.

1. Tour pilots in the Grand Canyon, Hawaii, maybe even Florida.

2. Single-pilot 135 operators anywhere (135.101 requires an SIC for IFR passenger-carrying)

[mastermags]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

1. Tour pilots in the Grand Canyon, Hawaii, maybe even Florida.

2. Single-pilot 135 operators anywhere (135.101 requires an SIC for IFR passenger-carrying)

And traffic pilots like myself, although I occasionally do have to get that IFR approach back into the airport.

[jrh]

And traffic pilots like myself, although I occasionally do have to get that IFR approach back into the airport.

And Part 91 corporate. On short hops with good weather, IFR clearances just slow you down and create extra work.

[aloft]

I got the 300nm XC requirement knocked out before I even knew it was a requirement with a trip to Tahoe from San Diego the summer I got my private ticket. Knocked out the day dual XC a few months ago, still gotta do the night dual XC--which I'm a little leery of; night + mountains = bad. I'll probably just plan and fly it as a pseudo-IFR flight, adhering to airways and MEAs.

[Josh]

Did you make the required stops Matt? Or just make the 300NM total in one shot? Night XC is fun. Just find another state to fly into so you don't have to worry about the mountains!

[aloft]

Josh! Long time, man! Where you been hiding??

That trip was 465nm each way, with fuel stops at PTV on the way up and BFL on the way back--with landings at PTV, TRK, BFL and MYF, I'd say it was legal.

There are mountains in pretty much every direction here; the MEAs range from 9000 to 16000.

A couple years back I did a night XC from MYF to SBP (for encampment graduation, meh) that ended in a divert to PRB due to coastal stratus at both SBP and SMX (my alternate). I ended up over SBP with no idea where VFR conditions could be found (Flightwatch had closed for the night and Center was not helpful) and no clue of the terrain elevation beyond SBP to the north (my brilliant plan was simply to follow the 101 north). Needless to say, that flight taught me to put a little more thought into alternate selection!

[Windchill]

Isn't the long cross-country essentially going to be at least 500nm round trip? With one leg being at least 250nm direct line from the initial departure airport ... you'll have to cover that minimum distance returning.

[RynoB]

Originally Posted by Windchill

Isn't the long cross-country essentially going to be at least 500nm round trip? With one leg being at least 250nm direct line from the initial departure airport ... you'll have to cover that minimum distance returning.

61.129 (a)(4)(i)"One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. . ."

The leg does not have to be 250nm. Just one landing has to be at least 250nm from the original point of departure. You can do a round-robin with 50nm legs landing at 6 airports. As long as one of those points (airports) is at least 250 nm from the origin airport, your covered.

[KennPilot]

Well thanks for the input everyone. I apparently started something at the flight school as well. There were calls placed to DPEs and the ORL FSDO by the chief instructor and my instructor. My instructor talked to the number 2 man at the ORL FSDO and was told that there is no restriction for that flight. It could be either IFR or VFR. Then, when I was down there today, a call came in from the FSDO for my instructor (who had just left) so I fielded the call and sure enough the inspector I spoke with said the same thing. So tomorrow I am heading from ORL to JZI, then JZI to CRG, then CRG back to ORL. All requirements will be met. ORL to JZI = 259nm straight line and landings at JZI, CRG, and ORL. Should be fun.

Thanks again,

Kenn

[jtrain609]

And if the examiner doesn't take the flight, call the FSDO right then and there. I can assure you that you'll fail your checkride because that examiner will get himself ripped a new one by the FSDO, but nobody else is going to have that problem again.

This is a very common misconception I've found.

[PanJet]

Originally Posted by John Herreshoff

And if the examiner doesn't take the flight, call the FSDO right then and there. I can assure you that you'll fail your checkride because that examiner will get himself ripped a new one by the FSDO, but nobody else is going to have that problem again.

Of course this is what anyone would be tempted to do, but do you really wanna piss off the examiner before you've hardly started the checkride? You may get him on the regs right then and there, but if he's really that anal to begin with he'll now be on a mission to find some nit picky thing to knock you off on guarenteed.

[PanJet]

Sorry, I guess you said the same thing I did just now, just read it wrong the first time.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by John Herreshoff

And if the examiner doesn't take the flight, call the FSDO right then and there. I can assure you that you'll fail your checkride because that examiner will get himself ripped a new one by the FSDO, but nobody else is going to have that problem again.

Well, if he doesn't take the flight and you needed the flight for qualification, you may not have anything to lose.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Well, if he doesn't take the flight and you needed the flight for qualification, you may not have anything to lose.

Wouldn't you be losing by getting a pink slip, rather than just acting like the checkride never happened?

I always thought if you show up to a checkride without the requirements met, you are ineligible (sp?) to take the checkride. Therefore, you can't get pink slipped and have a failure on your record for something you aren't allowed to take. Or is it possible to fail before you even start?