FSDO's Response On The Pre-Solo Written

mtsu_av8er · November 14th, 2005, 13:31

I spoke to my POC from the Nashville FSDO about 10 minutes ago, and he confirmed that The Pre-Solo Knowledge Test does NOT have to be written.

Just wanted to pass that on . . .

SFLAX · November 14th, 2005, 13:36

Interesting. But the paper trail is always a good idea. I mean in 6 months lets say this student has an accident or violates an FAR. They will go back to you and ask, did you teach this and did he/she get it right. You then can pull out the pre-written solo test and show them yes. B/C your word may not just cut it in an accident investigation. Also I keep copies of everything when I was instructing. Remember records need to be kepted for 3 years.

jrh · November 14th, 2005, 13:40

Interesting. Did he give any reasons why an instructor should or should not do a written exam?

I've always thought it was kind of odd to give a student the written exam and have to admit that nothing happens if they do poorly...they just keep retaking it until they're good enough. Most people do fine the first time, but it's still an odd system with no consequences.

jrh · November 14th, 2005, 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFLAX

Remember records need to be kepted for 3 years.

Not every possible record though. Only records of endorsements given to a student pilot for solo flight privileges or the endorsements given to a person for a written or practical test.

mtsu_av8er · November 14th, 2005, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrh

Interesting. Did he give any reasons why an instructor should or should not do a written exam?

Well, we talked about it in detail, and he didn't give any reason (I don't think any of them can really say WHY, they just interpret that facts). We both agreed that the paper trail could hurt you as much as it could help you. He also said that your endorsement is proof enough that you administered the test. He said that the regs pretty much lay out what we NEED to keep records of.

BobDDuck · November 14th, 2005, 14:13

My initial CFI quized me orally on everything in the pre solo test, which allowed me to talk through some of the questions I wasn't strong on. It also allowed him to teach some things as he did it. After that he gave me a written test that esentially had the same material on it. After the verbal, the written test was no problem.

kellwolf · November 16th, 2005, 23:55

Downside to this: it's only useful for the BNA FSDO. I can guaran-damn-tee you that there are several FSDOs out there that will tell you it HAS to be written. It's all a matter of geography. For us, especially the 141 part, the Ft Worth FSDO wants it in writing.

Philip · November 17th, 2005, 00:59

then why don't you call and confirm instead of speculate?

kellwolf · November 18th, 2005, 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

then why don't you call and confirm instead of speculate?

????? No speculation involved. Did I not say "the Ft Worth FSDO wants it in writing?" This is one of those grey areas that are abundant in aviation that leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Your answer will not only vary from FSDO to FSDO, but probably from inspector to inspector in the same FSDO. It sorta falls in with things does the clock have to be installed in the aircraft and working or is a stopwatch okay for IFR flight.

Philip · November 18th, 2005, 03:03

You did, but it doesn't sound like you asked anyone about it.

MidlifeFlyer · November 18th, 2005, 07:28

Of course it doesn't have to be "written". It can be done by computer. The FAR says so. Why do you need a FSDO stamp of approval for a clear regulatory requirement?

mtsu_av8er · November 18th, 2005, 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Of course it doesn't have to be "written". It can be done by computer. The FAR says so. Why do you need a FSDO stamp of approval for a clear regulatory requirement?

According to my POC, it can be oral.

MidlifeFlyer · November 18th, 2005, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

According to my POC, it can be oral.

That's nice. The FAR says different. Ask your POC to read the definition of "knowledge test" in 61.1.

mtsu_av8er · November 18th, 2005, 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

That's nice.

Very!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

The FAR says different. Ask your POC to read the definition of "knowledge test" in 61.1.

Already did. According to him, 61.1 applies when the test is for a certificate or rating.

MidlifeFlyer · November 19th, 2005, 11:58

Wow. So "knowledge test" doesn't mean "knowledge test." Cool.

Hope you got it in writing. New POC might come along who likes the rules the way they are written and doesn't make up his own.

roundout · November 19th, 2005, 12:45

i don't do ##### as a CFI without keeping a record on paper somewhere. doing anything required by the FAR orally is a really, really bad idea. even if one POC at one FSDO says it's ok.....i wouldn't do it.

CYA, buddy.

MidlifeFlyer · November 19th, 2005, 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by roundout

i don't do ##### as a CFI without keeping a record on paper somewhere.

That's a separate issue, but neither do I.

I can't buy the "you're better off not keeping a record of it" philosophy. Sounds like one of those pseudo-legal arguments with no knowledge backing it up. I guess no record is better than really lousy record, but even then it would be a close call.

mtsu_av8er · November 19th, 2005, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Wow. So "knowledge test" doesn't mean "knowledge test." Cool.

Well, I could go by your FAQ over the FSDO's word, but I won't . . .

Quote:

Hope you got it in writing. New POC might come along who likes the rules the way they are written and doesn't make up his own.

Doesn't really matter to me - I give written tests, so it doesn't affect me. New POC comes along, won't bother me any!

MidlifeFlyer · November 19th, 2005, 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Well, I could go by your FAQ over the FSDO's word, but I won't . . .

!

Touche. Of course, I'll take the FAR's plain language over a FSDO operative who loses nothing by being wrong.

mtsu_av8er · November 19th, 2005, 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Touche. Of course, I'll take the FAR's plain language over a FSDO operative who loses nothing by being wrong.

Fair enough trade!

Philip · November 21st, 2005, 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Wow. So "knowledge test" doesn't mean "knowledge test." Cool.

Hope you got it in writing. New POC might come along who likes the rules the way they are written and doesn't make up his own.

slightly off topic, but I know of a 135 operator going to court today over their certificate, and one half of the FAA is on their side, and the other half is against them. Who CAN you trust?
Pretty silly.

MidlifeFlyer · November 21st, 2005, 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

slightly off topic, but I know of a 135 operator going to court today over their certificate, and one half of the FAA is on their side, and the other half is against them. Who CAN you trust?
Pretty silly.

There are a couple of nasty situations like that. There are two recent ones in the NTSB reports. One is the 135 operator who had a clean bill of health from its FSDO, so the FAA brought in a team from another FSDO to write it up. The other is the poor schnook who took a checkride with an FAA Inspector who, it turns out, didn't have authority to give checkrides.

Is the one you know of at Centennial? Can you mention which operator?

November 14th, 2005, 13:31	#1
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,567	FSDO's Response On The Pre-Solo Written I spoke to my POC from the Nashville FSDO about 10 minutes ago, and he confirmed that The Pre-Solo Knowledge Test does *NOT* have to be written. Just wanted to pass that on . . . __________________ Ike is one nasty storm, and it's all the fault of management. That's why we need ALPA.

November 14th, 2005, 14:13	#6
BobDDuck Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Left Seat Posts: 5,734	My initial CFI quized me orally on everything in the pre solo test, which allowed me to talk through some of the questions I wasn't strong on. It also allowed him to teach some things as he did it. After that he gave me a written test that esentially had the same material on it. After the verbal, the written test was no problem. __________________ TBJC08 The Gear Monkey The Gear Monkey Store

November 16th, 2005, 23:55	#7
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,860	Downside to this: it's only useful for the BNA FSDO. I can guaran-damn-tee you that there are several FSDOs out there that will tell you it HAS to be written. It's all a matter of geography. For us, especially the 141 part, the Ft Worth FSDO wants it in writing. __________________ "I'm The Doctor, by the way. Run for your life!"

November 18th, 2005, 07:28	#11
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 3,027	Of course it doesn't have to be "written". It can be done by computer. The FAR says so. Why do you need a FSDO stamp of approval for a clear regulatory requirement? __________________ Mark www.midlifeflight.com "I don't understand" doesn't mean it's gray

November 19th, 2005, 11:58	#15
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 3,027	Wow. So "knowledge test" doesn't mean "knowledge test." Cool. Hope you got it in writing. New POC might come along who likes the rules the way they are written and doesn't make up his own. __________________ Mark www.midlifeflight.com "I don't understand" doesn't mean it's gray

November 14th, 2005, 13:36	#2
SFLAX Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: On the Road Posts: 177	Interesting. But the paper trail is always a good idea. I mean in 6 months lets say this student has an accident or violates an FAR. They will go back to you and ask, did you teach this and did he/she get it right. You then can pull out the pre-written solo test and show them yes. B/C your word may not just cut it in an accident investigation. Also I keep copies of everything when I was instructing. Remember records need to be kepted for 3 years.

November 14th, 2005, 13:40	#3
jrh Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 1,744	Interesting. Did he give any reasons why an instructor should or should not do a written exam? I've always thought it was kind of odd to give a student the written exam and have to admit that nothing happens if they do poorly...they just keep retaking it until they're good enough. Most people do fine the first time, but it's still an odd system with no consequences.

November 17th, 2005, 00:59	#8
Philip Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: KAPA Posts: 1,580	then why don't you call and confirm instead of speculate?

November 18th, 2005, 03:03	#10
Philip Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: KAPA Posts: 1,580	You did, but it doesn't sound like you asked anyone about it.

November 19th, 2005, 12:45	#16
roundout Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: kads Posts: 820	i don't do ##### as a CFI without keeping a record on paper somewhere. doing anything required by the FAR orally is a really, really bad idea. even if one POC at one FSDO says it's ok.....i wouldn't do it. CYA, buddy. __________________ http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm this reference tool contains examples of the proper spellings and usages of the following words: your, you're, there, their, they're, than, then

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