Logging PIC during complex training

subpilot · September 13th, 2005, 16:24

Question 1: Can a commercial student log PIC while doing their complex training without their complex endorsement?

FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i) States:
A pilot may log PIC time only for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which that person is rated or has priviledges.

OK, so I have a private ASEL but no complex endorsement. Am I rated or have priviledges to meet this requirement while doing my training in an Arrow?

Question 2: To add to this question. Can I log PIC for the training time when the instructor is demonstrating a manuever because at that moment I am not the sole manipulator of that aircraft? This is not a complex aircraft question but in general.

Question 3: Can a safety pilot who is not an instructor log PIC during the portion of the flight that the other pilot is operating the aircraft solely by reference to instruments? If yes, where is this stated? It is not allowed as per 61.51(e).

Thank you

E_Dawg · September 13th, 2005, 17:05

[ QUOTE ]
Question 1: Can a commercial student log PIC while doing their complex training without their complex endorsement?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[ QUOTE ]
Question 2: To add to this question. Can I log PIC for the training time when the instructor is demonstrating a manuever because at that moment I am not the sole manipulator of that aircraft? This is not a complex aircraft question but in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

no (but seriously, are you really going to subtract 0.1 because your cfi showed you a chandelle?)

[ QUOTE ]
Question 3: Can a safety pilot who is not an instructor log PIC during the portion of the flight that the other pilot is operating the aircraft solely by reference to instruments? If yes, where is this stated? It is not allowed as per 61.51(e).

[/ QUOTE ]

yes if the safety pilot is acting pic. if you are acting pic then the safety pilot may log sic.

IflyORL · September 13th, 2005, 17:16

I can't tell you legally the correct answer but I can tell you that my CFI logged the entire time I was training for my complex as PIC it was a topic on convo with my next instructor when I did my Commercial training because he wasn't sure how the DE would react to that but the general concensis among the other instructors was it was fine because, " A single engine is a single engine" and the DE never took a second glance at it so I think it's ok

GaTechKid · September 13th, 2005, 17:29

[ QUOTE ]
I can't tell you legally the correct answer

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you can! Just open up that paperweight called the FAR/AIM...

MidlifeFlyer · September 13th, 2005, 17:32

[ QUOTE ]
Question 1: Can a commercial student log PIC while doing their complex training without their complex endorsement?

FAR 61.51(e)(1)(I) States:
A pilot may log PIC time only for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which that person is rated or has privileges.

OK, so I have a private ASEL but no complex endorsement. Am I rated or have privileges to meet this requirement while doing my training in an Arrow?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. The relevant language is "rated" which means the stuff that appears in the back of your pilot certificate under, er, "ratings." If you are ASEL, you may log as PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls.

Don't get confused by the recent addition of the phrase "or has privileges." In addition to it being an "or," the phrase specifically refers to sport pilots who have "privileges" for specific types and do not have "ratings"

[ QUOTE ]
Question 2: To add to this question. Can I log PIC for the training time when the instructor is demonstrating a maneuver because at that moment I am not the sole manipulator of that aircraft? This is not a complex aircraft question but in general.

[/ QUOTE ]As e Dawg pointed out, the answer is technically no.

[ QUOTE ]
Question 3: Can a safety pilot who is not an instructor log PIC during the portion of the flight that the other pilot is operating the aircraft solely by reference to instruments? If yes, where is this stated? It is not allowed as per 61.51(e).

[/ QUOTE ]The safety pilot may log PIC =if= the safety pilot is also acting as the pilot in command of the flight. It's a combination of 61.51(e)(1)(iii) and 91.109(b). The safety pilot who is also acting as pilot in command is acting as PIC on a flight that requires more than one pilot.

Want a longer explanation? Check out my logging FAQ page. http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=2

September 13th, 2005, 16:24	#1
subpilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 687	Logging PIC during complex training Question 1: Can a commercial student log PIC while doing their complex training without their complex endorsement? FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i) States: A pilot may log PIC time only for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which that person is rated or has priviledges. OK, so I have a private ASEL but no complex endorsement. Am I rated or have priviledges to meet this requirement while doing my training in an Arrow? Question 2: To add to this question. Can I log PIC for the training time when the instructor is demonstrating a manuever because at that moment I am not the sole manipulator of that aircraft? This is not a complex aircraft question but in general. Question 3: Can a safety pilot who is not an instructor log PIC during the portion of the flight that the other pilot is operating the aircraft solely by reference to instruments? If yes, where is this stated? It is not allowed as per 61.51(e). Thank you

September 13th, 2005, 17:05	#2
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 4,170	Re: Logging PIC during complex training [ QUOTE ] Question 1: Can a commercial student log PIC while doing their complex training without their complex endorsement? [/ QUOTE ] yes [ QUOTE ] Question 2: To add to this question. Can I log PIC for the training time when the instructor is demonstrating a manuever because at that moment I am not the sole manipulator of that aircraft? This is not a complex aircraft question but in general. [/ QUOTE ] no (but seriously, are you really going to subtract 0.1 because your cfi showed you a chandelle?) [ QUOTE ] Question 3: Can a safety pilot who is not an instructor log PIC during the portion of the flight that the other pilot is operating the aircraft solely by reference to instruments? If yes, where is this stated? It is not allowed as per 61.51(e). [/ QUOTE ] yes if the safety pilot is acting pic. if you are acting pic then the safety pilot may log sic.

September 13th, 2005, 17:16	#3
IflyORL Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 59	Re: Logging PIC during complex training I can't tell you legally the correct answer but I can tell you that my CFI logged the entire time I was training for my complex as PIC it was a topic on convo with my next instructor when I did my Commercial training because he wasn't sure how the DE would react to that but the general concensis among the other instructors was it was fine because, " A single engine is a single engine" and the DE never took a second glance at it so I think it's ok

September 13th, 2005, 17:29	#4
GaTechKid Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Frigid NWA Hub Posts: 1,883	Re: Logging PIC during complex training [ QUOTE ] I can't tell you legally the correct answer [/ QUOTE ] Sure you can! Just open up that paperweight called the FAR/AIM...

September 13th, 2005, 17:32	#5
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,974	Re: Logging PIC during complex training [ QUOTE ] Question 1: Can a commercial student log PIC while doing their complex training without their complex endorsement? FAR 61.51(e)(1)(I) States: A pilot may log PIC time only for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which that person is rated or has privileges. OK, so I have a private ASEL but no complex endorsement. Am I rated or have privileges to meet this requirement while doing my training in an Arrow? [/ QUOTE ]Yes. The relevant language is "rated" which means the stuff that appears in the back of your pilot certificate under, er, "ratings." If you are ASEL, you may log as PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls. Don't get confused by the recent addition of the phrase "or has privileges." In addition to it being an "or," the phrase specifically refers to sport pilots who have "privileges" for specific types and do not have "ratings" [ QUOTE ] Question 2: To add to this question. Can I log PIC for the training time when the instructor is demonstrating a maneuver because at that moment I am not the sole manipulator of that aircraft? This is not a complex aircraft question but in general. [/ QUOTE ]As e Dawg pointed out, the answer is technically no. [ QUOTE ] Question 3: Can a safety pilot who is not an instructor log PIC during the portion of the flight that the other pilot is operating the aircraft solely by reference to instruments? If yes, where is this stated? It is not allowed as per 61.51(e). [/ QUOTE ]The safety pilot may log PIC =if= the safety pilot is also acting as the pilot in command of the flight. It's a combination of 61.51(e)(1)(iii) and 91.109(b). The safety pilot who is also acting as pilot in command is acting as PIC on a flight that requires more than one pilot. Want a longer explanation? Check out my logging FAQ page. http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=2

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