Pt 61 Commercial Req's Questions - 61.129

[JEP]

Just a few questions regarding 61.129 (a)
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.

- 50 hours in airplanes, so the other fifty could be in FTD as in a Frasca 141 simulator. Correct: Yes/No.

61.129(a)(3)
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure

- Day VFR conditions, but can it be on an IFR flight plan? This has to be dual (with CFI) correct?

61.129(a)(3)
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

- Night VFR consitions, but can it be on an IFR flight plan? This has to be dual (with CFI) correct?

61.129(a)(4)
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.

- This makes no mention of IFR or VFR so am I correct in thinking it can be on an IFR flight plan and in IFR conditions?

[Grabo172]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a few questions regarding 61.129 (a)
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.

- 50 hours in airplanes, so the other fifty could be in FTD as in a Frasca 141 simulator. Correct: Yes/No.

61.129(a)(3)
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure

- Day VFR conditions, but can it be on an IFR flight plan? This has to be dual (with CFI) correct?

61.129(a)(3)
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

- Night VFR consitions, but can it be on an IFR flight plan? This has to be dual (with CFI) correct?

61.129(a)(4)
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.

- This makes no mention of IFR or VFR so am I correct in thinking it can be on an IFR flight plan and in IFR conditions?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. No - a sim is not a powered aircraft... that means the other 50 can be in helecopters/ blimps/ gyroplanes/ etc...

2. No - must be a VFR flight, do it on a VFR flight plan, and with a CFI. the whole point is to get your eyes OUT of the cockpit again after your instrument training. For mine, I had to fly from Schenectady, NY to Burlington, VT and NOT go above 1500 MSL. That meant I had to do some good pilotage and fly through valleys and pases to make it throught the mountains. It was a BLAST!

4. See above... This one is also dual... There is one in there you have to do 5 hours night VFR with 10 T/O and LNDGS solo though.

5. YES, the long XC can be either IFR/ VFR or combination of the two.

[JEP]

[ QUOTE ]
1. No - a sim is not a powered aircraft... that means the other 50 can be in helecopters/ blimps/ gyroplanes/ etc...


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I get for posting so late at night. Then my question goes to what I have seen others here post (De727Ups) for one, that you can have 50 hours in an FTD. Does anyone have any insight on that?

[DE727UPS]

"61.129 (i) Credit a maximum of 50 hours toward the total aeronautical experience requirements for an airplane or powered-lift rating, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained from an authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents that class of airplane or powered-lift category and type, if applicable, appropriate to the rating sought;"

It's way down towards the last part of 61.129, you gotta get out of (a). Go way down past the Gas Ballon section. Couldn't the FAA make this stuff a little harder to find?

[JEP]

thank you DE....I knew I had heard it mentioned before. I will go peruse that portion now....

[GSMPilot]

when you log the 5 hrs night for 10 landings and takeoffs, when you fill out the 8710 do you put that under solo or pic time? likewise with your solo 300nm cross country?

[GaTechKid]

[ QUOTE ]
when you log the 5 hrs night for 10 landings and takeoffs, when you fill out the 8710 do you put that under solo or pic time? likewise with your solo 300nm cross country?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you flew solo then you put the time under the SOLO and PIC columns on the 8710.

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]
when you log the 5 hrs night for 10 landings and takeoffs, when you fill out the 8710 do you put that under solo or pic time? likewise with your solo 300nm cross country?

[/ QUOTE ]The two categories are not mutually exclusive. If you were entitled to log it a PIC time it goes in that column. If you were alone in the airplane, it goes in the solo column. If you were entitled to log it as PIC -=and= you were alone in the airplane, it does in both columns.

Why is that difficult? if you had 3 oranges and 2 apples and had to fill out a form that had columns for "apples," "oranges" and "fruit", what would you do?

[JEP]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is that difficult? if you had 3 oranges and 2 apples and had to fill out a form that had columns for "apples," "oranges" and "fruit", what would you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends.....Who picked them?

[moxiepilot]

[ QUOTE ]
2. No - must be a VFR flight, do it on a VFR flight plan, and with a CFI. the whole point is to get your eyes OUT of the cockpit again after your instrument training.

[/ QUOTE ]

my understanding is different. it is a VFR flight but that does not preclude you from filing an IFR flight plan. you however, must do the x-c VFR so it really is a mute point.

i however wanted to point out the difference in symantics.

[Pilot Hopeful]

Generally, VFR and IFR are mutually exclusive realms of flight. You cannot fly both VFR and IFR at the same time (notwithstanding VFR-on-top).

However, it is possible to fly IFR in VMC, which should not be confused with flying IFR in VFR or VFR in IFR, which really makes no sense, unless you are VFR-on-top.

The commercial regulation in question requires a day VFR flight. Filing IFR places the flight into a different realm of rules and regulations than VFR allows, and should not be considered to satisfy the commercial requirement.

[JEP]

[ QUOTE ]
Generally, VFR and IFR are mutually exclusive realms of flight. You cannot fly both VFR and IFR at the same time (notwithstanding VFR-on-top).

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh, not so sure there. I believe you are mixing words, but let me ask you this. Can you fly on an IFR flt plan in VFR conditions? I think the answer would be YES as you already stated.

[ QUOTE ]
61.129(a)(3)
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions , consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure

[/ QUOTE ]

Says VFR conditions, and makes no mention of VFR FLT PLAN.

[ QUOTE ]
61.129(a)(4)
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.

[/ QUOTE ]

And here there is no mention of either; VFR or IFR. Therefore you can easily say that it could be in IFR conditions.

[SteveC]

Now semantics rears its ugly head.

You can certainly fly IFR in VFR conditions, but you do not fly IFR in VFR. IFR is one set of rules, VFR is a different set of rules. The more common terminology is to say "IFR in VMC" (Instrument Flight Rules in Visual Meterological Conditions). "VFR" does not have the same meaning as "VFR conditions". It's a subtle but important distinction, related to your mention of VFR Flight Plans.

Unfortunately it is common usage to say "flying in VFR" when what is actually meant is "flying in VMC".

A silly example (but possibly valid) is if you are on an IFR flight plan, in VMC conditions, and ATC says: "say flight conditions", and you respond: "I'm VFR", and ATC answers back: "Cancellation received, squawk 1200, good day!". Wouldn't happen, I know, but illustrates the difference between VFR and VMC.

[Grabo172]

I agree with Steve... See my tag... "Words Mean Things".

VFR = Visual Flight RULES
VMC = Visaul Meteorlogical Conditions

IFR in VMC = possible and probable
IFR in VFR = Makes no sense

So the VFR flight per the topic of this question is VFR... NOT IFR in VMC...

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Steve... See my tag... "Words Mean Things".


[/ QUOTE ]Indeed they do. So let's see what=words= 61.129(a)(3)(iii) uses:

==============================
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
==============================

Note, "VFR conditions" not "under VFR".

"Conditions" is the key. When the FAR uses "conditions" with VFR or IFR, it means weather, not flight rules. So, for example, FAR 1.1 defines:

==============================
IFR conditions means weather conditions below the minimum for flight under visual flight rules.

and

IFR over the top, with respect to the operation of aircraft, means the operation of an aircraft over the top on an IFR flight plan when cleared by air traffic control to maintain "VFR conditions" or "VFR conditions on top".

and

Special VFR conditions mean meteorological conditions that are less than those required for basic VFR flight in controlled airspace and in which some aircraft are permitted flight under visual flight rules.
==============================

There are other examples. Look at the rule about communications failure under IFR, where, like VFR on top, the regs talk about VFR conditions while flying on an IFR flight plan.:

==============================
91.185 IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has two-way radio communications failure when operating under IFR shall comply with the rules of this section.
(b) VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.
==============================
This last is a pretty good one since it uses both "VFR conditions" and "under VFR" and the difference in meaning is pretty clear.

I don't know of anywhere in the FAR where it uses "IFR conditions" or "VFR conditions" to mean the rules of flight rather than the weather.

I agree that the entire purpose of the flight is for visual training. And so, the Part 61 FAQ puts the kibosh on anything more than incidental hood work. But the regulation recognizes that you may very well be in a situation where the airspace requires a flight to be under instrument flight rules (consider the enhanced Class B shortly after 9/11) and has the flexibility to permit it.

[JEP]

[ QUOTE ]
Indeed they do. So let's see what=words= 61.129(a)(3)(iii) uses:

==============================
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
==============================


[/ QUOTE ]

I think we will agree to disagree on this one. I will side with MidlifeFlyer because of the conditions wording. I would prefer the IFR fltplan rather than VFR flight following anyday.

[Grabo172]

Here's the deal though... if you have to do the flight in
VFR CONDITIONS, and you are on an IFR flight plan, ATC can vector you right into a cloud and you HAVE to comply, unless it puts you in danger...

Well, NOW you just left VFR conditions, and the flight doesn't count...

GO VFR! THAT IS THE INTENT OF THE REG!!! (yes that was yelling)


If I'm the CFI that has to do this flight with a student, we will NOT go IFR. That is not the intent and it's not the way it should be done. What is so darn hard about VFR? Oh my, you might have to do some planning and calculating and actually have to look out the airplane on your own. Yeesh!

On a side rant, why does it seems that everyone wants to cheat the FARs? Looking for LOOP HOLES? The Easy way out? I've been noticing this all too often lately, and it's begining to drive me MAD!

Edited to add some rant

[JEP]

See quote below:
[ QUOTE ]
I think we will agree to disagree on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the deal though... if you have to do the flight in
VFR CONDITIONS, and you are on an IFR flight plan, ATC can vector you right into a cloud and you HAVE to comply, unless it puts you in danger...

[/ QUOTE ]
Agree, if it came to that, you could cancel IFR if you needed.
[ QUOTE ]
GO VFR! THAT IS THE INTENT OF THE REG!!! (yes that was yelling)

[/ QUOTE ]
And you know this was the intent of the reg, How? Are you writing regs for the FAA now?
[ QUOTE ]
What is so darn hard about VFR?

[/ QUOTE ]
Who said VFR was hard? Wasn't me.....
[ QUOTE ]
If I'm the CFI that has to do this flight with a student, we will NOT go IFR.

[/ QUOTE ]
Great. And there are CFI's that appear they could or will do it on an IFR flt plan.
[ QUOTE ]
On a side rant, why does it seems that everyone wants to cheat the FARs? Looking for LOOP HOLES? The Easy way out?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not trying to cheat the FAR's or look for loop holes or the easy way out by any means. Just putting the question out there and looking for discussion.

Step back from the keyboard take a deep breath and see the first quote here. Obviously there are experienced people on both sides of the fence here.

[Grabo172]

[ QUOTE ]

Agree, if it came to that, you could cancel IFR if you needed.

Who said VFR was hard? Wasn't me.....

Great. And there are CFI's that appear they could or will do it on an IFR flt plan.
[ QUOTE ]
On a side rant, why does it seems that everyone wants to cheat the FARs? Looking for LOOP HOLES? The Easy way out?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not trying to cheat the FAR's or look for loop holes or the easy way out by any means. Just putting the question out there and looking for discussion.

Step back from the keyboard take a deep breath and see the first quote here. Obviously there are experienced people on both sides of the fence here.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF you do end up cancelling IFR in the Middle because they just tried to vector you into a cloud, where's your VFR flight plan? Did you take the time to make both up? If not, now you are in close to IMC, with no flight plan, and ATC just told you to squawk VFR, radar service is terminated, resume own navigation... Not where I'd want to be. Worse yet, what if in your attempt to stay VFR you climbed on top of an overcast layer that is at 1000' and now have lost you IFR flight plan?... And if there is an instructor out there that is comfortable with that, then...

I have stepped away from the keyboard and took a deep breath, and my thoughts are still the same. VFR means VFR, IFR means IFR, the absense of specification means do what you want... Why take the chance?

I'm not looking to fight about this, you have asked for input, and it has been put out. You can choose to follow anyone's advice you like. But if you do it on an IFR flight plan, and the DE that gives you your ride has the same opinion as me (and I know the ones around here that I deal with do), then you'll have to re-do that flight and reschedule your checkride...

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the deal though... if you have to do the flight in
If I'm the CFI that has to do this flight with a student, we will NOT go IFR. That is not the intent and it's not the way it should be done.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree with you on principle, but not on what the regs say. And I do the same as you - I insist that commercial dual cross countries are done in VMC and under VFR. (How else can I effectively set up a deviation over pitch black terrain at night?)

But you don't have to rant. The regs are written the way they are written. The CFI who does it on an IFR flight plan isn't cheating and he isn't finding loopholes. In fact, the more justified rant might well be to yell about people who complain that the rules weren't written the way =they= wanted them to be written.

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
But if you do it on an IFR flight plan, and the DE that gives you your ride has the same opinion as me (and I know the ones around here that I deal with do), then you'll have to re-do that flight and reschedule your checkride...

[/ QUOTE ]

Just looking at the logbook, unless intrument time was logged (which would be stupid and WOULD go against the reg), how would the DE know it was on an IFR flight plan? I don't go in and put "on IFR flight plan" or "on VFR flight plan" in my logbook.

As far as vectored into the cloud, you COULD ask for a deviation around the cloud on an IFR flight plan. If it's a decent build up and there's not much traffic in the area, odds are you'll get it.

On principle, I agree with both you and Midlife. I'd do the dual flight under VFR with my student. Just saying that it can be done and is legal.

Other regs that are written with intent (ie the supervised PIC reg for the CMEL initial) don't work like they should. For that reg, the intent is to appease the insurance companies. The FAA would prefer that that time be solo, ala the PPL requirements. At least, that's how I read it. However, that "supervised PIC" that IMO should be solo if it weren't for insurance, does NOT count towards your 15 PIC for the MEI. Ironically, if you flew it solo, it would......

[GaTechKid]

[ QUOTE ]
However, that "supervised PIC" that IMO should be solo if it weren't for insurance, does NOT count towards your 15 PIC for the MEI. Ironically, if you flew it solo, it would......


[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting. I guess I never thought of that situation since I already had my multi-rating when I did the 10 hours supervised PIC. Did you put those hours under the solo or pic column on the 8710?

[kellwolf]

PIC. Can't put it under solo since the instructor is in the plane with you.

I spent about an hour on the phone trying to get some answers on that one thing. 10 min with the FSDO, and I learned they knew nothing. Talked to a DE, and he said to get something in writing from the FSDO. Oddly, AOPA was the most helpful. When I took what they told me to the FSDO, they said "Well, I guess that makes sense...."

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
61.129(a)(3)
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure

- Day VFR conditions, but can it be on an IFR flight plan? This has to be dual (with CFI) correct?

61.129(a)(3)
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

- Night VFR consitions, but can it be on an IFR flight plan? This has to be dual (with CFI) correct?

61.129(a)(4)
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.

- This makes no mention of IFR or VFR so am I correct in thinking it can be on an IFR flight plan and in IFR conditions?

[/ QUOTE ]

My take on it is to perform it on a VFR flight plan while in VMC. Would an IFR flight plan be a violation? IMO, no. But to me, the intent and focus of the Commercial License is contact flying, and everything that goes with it. That is, the intent isn't instruments, nor IFR rules and regs. There's no approaches to shoot on these XCs, just as there are no contact maneuvers to train/perform during instrument training. For me, I'd leave the IFR flight plans for instrument training, or for when the CPL stud has completed the CPL to use them as he wants to. For CPL training, I consider it "advanced VFR", or "Super Private", so to speak, and train to such. It's some new regs, some new maneuvers, and tightened parameters from Private How many IFR flight plans do you file for the Private cross-countries? That's my interpertation. I too believe the regs could be a little more specific and clear on this issue, as they can on many things; but it's what we've got to deal with, so we have to make do.

[E_Dawg]

I agree with you Mike that the commercial cert is one that shows you have taken your skills to a new level... but most who get the comm are already instrument rated and by training for a commercial cert one should become more skilled in both vfr / ifr. A lot of ifr skills begin to receed when you go up and practice lazy 8s flight after flight...