Comm aeronautical experience 61.129?

[FOD]

61.129 (4) (ii) says,
"5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and landings at an airportwith an operating control tower"

Now, is this saying that these requirements must be meet from sunset to sunrise, or from 1 hour after to 1 hour before?

[dpilot83]

I've always interpreted it as 1 hour after to one hour before since that's what's required for currency to carry passengers at night...at least for the landings part...

[FOD]

[ QUOTE ]
I've always interpreted it as 1 hour after to one hour before since that's what's required for currency to carry passengers at night...at least for the landings part...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah im assuming the same thing, however it just says "night", which would mean between sunset and sunrise.

[FOD]

Ok, I think I found an answer to the question on the FAA's part 61 FAQ. However, the question was asked in regaurds to 61.109(a)(2). But, i'm assuming this will also hold true for 61.129(a)(4)(ii). Agree?

QUESTION: The private pilot night aeronautical experience [i.e., § 61.109(a)(2)] calls for “. . . 3 hours of night flight training . . .” Does this training have to be performed per the Part 1 night time definition (i.e., ”. . . means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the American Air Almanac, converted to local time) or per the § 61.57(b) night time definition (i.e., “. . . beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise . . .”)?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.57(b) and § 61.109(a)(2); It requires this night time aeronautical experience be performed during the nighttime conditions described in § 61.57(b). This training is required to be performed during the time period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise. Civil twilight starts about one half-hour after sunset, depending upon latitude. But, full dark conditions are not reasonable assured until a full hour after sunset. We want the training to be performed in the dark of night.

[dpilot83]

I think that's about as solid of an answer as you can get. I concur .

[Ralgha]

I think that's another example of the FAQ being wrong. If they intended for the requirements to be met between 1 hour after sunset and 1 hour before sunrise, they would have written that in the rule. They did everywhere else they intend those rules.

It means exactly what it says, "night" means the period between the end of evening civil twilight until the begining of morning civil twilight.

[kellwolf]

Had this discussion at the crashpad last week. While the definition of "night" according to the FARs is like Ralgha says, it seems that logging for currency is in the "1 hour after sunset to 1 hour before sunrise" category. We decided to go for the 1 hour after/before just to be on the safe side. That being said, who puts the times they fly in their logbook?

[Chris_Ford]

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That being said, who puts the times they fly in their logbook?

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And who differentiates their touch and go landings from full stops?

Just seems like some intentional vagueness to allow more flexibility (to or against your favor) in the interpretation of the rules.

Really makes for some headaches sometimes

[Ralgha]

[ QUOTE ]
And who differentiates their touch and go landings from full stops?

Just seems like some intentional vagueness to allow more flexibility (to or against your favor) in the interpretation of the rules.

Really makes for some headaches sometimes

[/ QUOTE ]

When the rules required a full stop (such as for taildraggers), I noted in my logbook that I did a full stop. I only logged landings as night landings if I did them between 1 hour after sunset, and one hour before sunrise to alleviate the complexity of currency. Doesn't change the fact that the commercial requirements don't need one hour after sunset to one hour before sunrise.

Most of the rules are only a headache if you try to analyze them for things that aren't there. Most are quite plain.

[USMCmech]

[ QUOTE ]
61.129 (4) (ii) says,
"5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and landings at an airportwith an operating control tower"

Now, is this saying that these requirements must be meet from sunset to sunrise, or from 1 hour after to 1 hour before?

[/ QUOTE ]


If it's dark outside the windsheild, I log it as night.

[Windchill]

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If it's dark outside the windsheild, I log it as night.

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I've seen it pretty dark during cloudy/overcast/stormy days a few hours before official "sunset" that seemed as though it could kinda be considered night ... I guess that sort of thing goes along with VFR flight out over the desert at night without a moon to help brighten the horizon.

As far as the Commercial night requirements ... I would venture to say you might as well start logging the hours at the end of civil twilight, but not land for another half hour in order for the landings to be considered night.

But if one would like to get really nit picky ... the reg doesn't specifically say the landings must meet the night time requirements, just log 5 hours after civil twilight, and oh by the way, also have 10 t/o and landings at an airport with an operating control tower

[Ralgha]

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But if one would like to get really nit picky ... the reg doesn't specifically say the landings must meet the night time requirements, just log 5 hours after civil twilight, and oh by the way, also have 10 t/o and landings at an airport with an operating control tower

[/ QUOTE ]

"5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings"

"With" means attached to. The 10 takeoff and landings are included with (as a part of) the 5 hours of night flight.

Seriously guys, it's quite plain English. Stop trying to analyze it.

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously guys, it's quite plain English. Stop trying to analyze it.

[/ QUOTE ]But if you don't overanalyze it, how can you possibly get it completely wrong?

[Ralgha]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously guys, it's quite plain English. Stop trying to analyze it.

[/ QUOTE ]But if you don't overanalyze it, how can you possibly get it completely wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah and then I'd have to find something else to do on my days off! Horror!