Brushes with death...

[Chris_Ford]

Well, today I had such a wonderful brush with death, I figured I'd start a JC topic about it. I'm sure what happened to me was minor leagues for some of you guys, but it got my heart pumping.

A little background. I fly a brand new C172 with the G1000 package (how lucky is that for a first CFI job?!?!), one of the many features it has is traffic alert... Well, my complacency must've set in early, because I didn't really think there were *that* many aircraft without transponders, and I was a huge believer of the "big sky" theory.

So today, I'm doing my third lesson with one of my students (for those of you who live by the CPC syllabus, it's CPC lesson 3, naturally), and one of the tasks in the flight is to show how straight and level, climbs, etc look on the panel and compare it to outside. So I'm focusing most of my effort inside, looking up about 50% of the time just to do various things, but not really scanning my periphery very well. Well lo and behold, an aircraft without a transponder comes screaming in towards me at a 90 degree angle (I was going 270, he was 360). My student (and oh so non-chalauntly, seriously) says "There's an airplane" and I'm just like "Holy *#@#" and I yank and bank. At its closest point, the aircraft took up slightly less than half of the windscreen, I'm estimating between 100-300 feet between us. The thing is, the other guy didn't even do anything at all, he probably still had not seen me.

This got my mind racing and I was about to go "Okay, we need to go back to the airport" but I opted instead to continue on... A good choice, as she ended up flying a beautiful pattern and landed with minimal assistance.

So my questions are these: 1) What kind of idiot doesn't have a transponder and cruises at 2500 feet? and
2) What near-death experiences have you had as a CFI? Have any gotten you to the point where you kissed the ground upon your return to Earth?

[jrh]

[ QUOTE ]
1) What kind of idiot doesn't have a transponder and cruises at 2500 feet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Tons. If it's legal, why not? A friend of mine operates his C-150 without a transponder all the time because he never goes into busy areas. Why spend the money on a transponder if you don't need to?
[ QUOTE ]
2) What near-death experiences have you had as a CFI? Have any gotten you to the point where you kissed the ground upon your return to Earth?

[/ QUOTE ]

I had the exact same thing happen to me a few weeks ago. Except we didn't have any TCAS sort of equipment. Both the student and I were looking outside, but a Taylorcraft flew in front of us. He came from left to right, and a little higher than us, so the wing and air vent of our C-152 blocked him until he was almost on top of us. It caught me off guard, but I still believe in the big sky theory...it worked, didn't it?

It also made a great lesson for the student on how the majority of collisions don't happen head on, and how right-of-way rules only mean so much...we might have had the right of way, but in the real world, do whatever it takes to keep from hitting someone.

Maybe I'm too laid back, or not experienced enough, but I haven't been scared enough to kiss the ground for anything yet.

[Chris_Ford]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) What kind of idiot doesn't have a transponder and cruises at 2500 feet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Tons. If it's legal, why not? A friend of mine operates his C-150 without a transponder all the time because he never goes into busy areas. Why spend the money on a transponder if you don't need to?

Maybe I'm too laid back, or not experienced enough, but I haven't been scared enough to kiss the ground for anything yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: if it's legal, why not? Because it's safer... and it's relatively simplistic to do, saving everyone heartache. Legal does not equal safe, as everyone knows.

As for the kiss the ground thing, I'm more curious to see if anyone has actually done it. I think it shows a lack of confidence in ability of either yourself or the student, but I'm sure there are times when many of us have metaphorically kissed the ground :-D

[wheelsup]

[ QUOTE ]

So my questions are these: 1) What kind of idiot doesn't have a transponder and cruises at 2500 feet? and
2) What near-death experiences have you had as a CFI? Have any gotten you to the point where you kissed the ground upon your return to Earth?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Airplanes without electrical systems or transponders that have not been tested in the last 24 months cannot be operated. Our airplanes have the BF Goodrich TCAS/Traffic Alert system and its awesome, but I've found I've gotten complacent with it. One or two events like you described and I'm looking back outside .

2) 2 were weather related. One was coming back from a xcty with a private. We ended up having to file a pop-up IFR with lightening bolts flashing all around (central Florida). When I say all around I mean ALL around. The other was a gust front moving through when we landed. Both times I felt inside my body "I shouldn't go on this flight" and both times the $$ factor took over. I never let it take over again....I should've learned from the first one but atleast I got another chance to screw up and learn .

I recently had an event where a student feathered an engine and then when they secured it they turned the wrong mag off. Made my heart jump. The funny thing is I saw it happening (them turning the wrong mag off) in my mind before their hand even streched out to turn it off. So my hand was on the way over as they were shutting it off...

Had another one happen going VFR at night over some 9000' mountains. We were doing about 145 indicated at 12,500. Somewhere over the mountain range our airpseed bled off to about 70 kts while trying to maintain altitude. I'm thinking christ, wtf is going on. Come to find out we were getting sucked down from the wind currents coming off the mountains. I only go that route now if winds aloft are <20 kts. Live and learn...

Yet another time we retracted the gear in one of our barons and I felt a "kick" in the rudder pedals. Now, I've done that a few times to know that it wasn't normal. We cycled the gear down and got 2 green, the mains. The nosewheel didn't come down (which explained the "kick"). I hand cranked it down, and coming over the numbers had the student cut the mixtures - and landed with the gear warning horn going off. I made one of the best landings I've ever made in that thing (if there ever was a time for it, it was then!). The nose wheel stayed vertical by shear luck and mx came and stuck a metal rod in to hold it down as they tugged it in. A bolt sheared off the one of the pushrods which prevented the gear from locking down - it essentially was just hanging down.

~wheelsup.

[kellwolf]

I about bought the farm three times in one day this week. Pretty standard for GKY (those of you who have flown/fly here understand).

1. Nearly became a hood ornament for a Seneca on the VOR 34 approach (departing runway was 16). As soon as I saw him pop out of the haze, it was bankin' and yankin' time.

2. Spin training in the 172. Exited the spin at 5000 feet, and we saw a SWA 737-700 (canyon blue, BTW) go under us at about 4000 ft. Clearing turns really don't help when the traffic is moving at 250 kts......

3. Coming back from OKC on a X/C, John and I about got t-boned by a guy in a Cessna. We were on the 45 for the downwind for 34, entered the downwind, and John just happened to look low and to the left. I hear "Holy ^#^%, traffic!" The guy had either just taken off or was doing a pseudo-cross wind entry. EIther way, his first radio call wasn't until he was flying formation with us on the downwind. There were at least two other planes in the pattern at the time (one over flying the field to get set up for a 45 entry and the other on base or final). We decided we should probably stay out of this whack-o's way so we flew out a little further and called our intentions. His response: "Nevermind we're leaving the pattern. That was a nice entry, btw." So, not only did he almost hit us after we did a textbook AIM entry, aparently, he thought we were at fault.

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Re: if it's legal, why not? Because it's safer... and it's relatively simplistic to do, saving everyone heartache. Legal does not equal safe, as everyone knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, if the plane was certified without one and you're flying in an area that doesn't require a xpndr, why would the owner pay to put one in? Having TCAS is nice and safer, but not everyone is running out and installing it.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
So my questions are these: 1) What kind of idiot doesn't have a transponder and cruises at 2500 feet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Same reply for me as the others. Same as with airplanes with no comm radios. Perfectly legal depending where you are.

[ QUOTE ]

and
2) What near-death experiences have you had as a CFI? Have any gotten you to the point where you kissed the ground upon your return to Earth?

[/ QUOTE ]

Doing training/upgrade rides in combat can get sporty.

[say_speed]

Keep in mind as well, even when in radar contact, the controllers have the ability to shadow the 1200 returns on their scope, making it less congested. So they might have not seen the traffic, even though he was on 1200.
Even in vfr flight following, you are still responsible for traffic avoidance.
See and avoid is a wonderfull thing for controllers, it takes a lot of liability off their shoulders!

[FlyOrDie]

Hey JRH,

Since you're talking about me I'll post my 2 cents.

My 150 was purchased without a transponder. My dad and I haven't felt the need to install one due to several factors. The main one is the aircraft is never operated in any areas requiring a transponder. Secondly we don't want the added expense of having to do inspections on it.

It is perfectly legal and safe. I personally have flown about 500 hours in it without any near midairs that having a transponder could have prevented. My 2 close calls involved antique aircraft without electrical systems.

There is no substitute for scanning. Both of the other aircraft I fly have the Ryan TCAD system in them which helps with traffic awareness but I still scan anytime I'm below 10k because the TCAD system will not help me spot one of my buddies cruising around in his Cub without a transponder.

Sorry to hear about the close call... almost had one of those over a nudist beach near Pismo CA.... Good thing I didn't notice the sunbathers until after the near miss

Bryan

[jtrain609]

Not quite a CFI yet, but Kellwolf is going to go for his CFII as initial on Tuesday and I'm starting on the same stuff next week.

We were flying from Arlington to KABI in a 172 this evening and almost had a head on with a Cessna 414. We were on an IFR flight plan and level 6,000'. Approach says there is traffic 12 o'clock, 6 miles opposite direction at 5,500'. We both flip on our landing lights and say that we see each other. Things are going cool until I realize that we're at the same altitude. Then he stops moving relative to us. I start to make a turn in what I think will take me away from him (I figured I had to do something since we were on a collision course) and we got about a half mile away from him and Steve told me to dive. We ended up at 5,500', the altitude he was supposed to be assigned and he passed over us by about 6,000'. I only saw him flash by, Steve watched the whole thing.

When we said we had traffic I told the controller that he was same altitude and the controller said "What? He's assigned 5,500'." Well, he wasn't. In fact we would have missed him with the heading he was on, BUT HE TURNED TOWARDS US!

I'm sick of being involved in near mid air's on a daily basis.

[BobDDuck]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm sick of being involved in near mid air's on a daily basis.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's something you will deal with until you start flying heavy metal up high. As for aircraft with out transponders? How about gliders. They are allowed to operate in class B and above 10000 in the 30nm veil with out one. A few of our planes have TIS but of course the gliders never show up on it. I've come about 200 feet from one before. Other near misses... (why do they call it a near miss? It should really be a near hit...) Not traffic related but the student feathering the wrong engine or shutting off the wrong mags... that's a fun one. You get really good at moving your hand quickly. Students transitioning from big/heavy aircraft cutting the power and flaring about 50 feet off the ground. Good times.

[roundout]

[ QUOTE ]
I about bought the farm three times in one day this week. Pretty standard for GKY (those of you who have flown/fly here understand).

[/ QUOTE ]

i've only flown out of GKY 3 or 4 times but every single time i've seen other planes way too close for comfort. this one time we were over the marina and there was nobody else talking but when we turned on to the downwind there was a cessna below us to the left and a twin above us and to the right, both entering the pattern as well. that was exciting for a second or two....

[jtrain609]

You in the area? Or were you just floating through Arlington?

[JDE]

GKY - Go Kill Yourself?

I think it's a matter of time before something happens in Arlington. I've never flown there, but I've heard plenty of stories.

[kellwolf]

Go Kill Yourself. It's funny cause it's true......

Last night we were flying back from ABI, entered on the 45 for 16 from the marina, and then heard a Twin Commanche (not Lloyd) call over the marina at the same time. So, I about threw out a neck muscle looking for this guy. Turns out he was on the SOUTH edge of Joe Pool, which is a few miles from the marina. To me, that's a MAJOR problem around Arlington: improper position reports. If you're over the marina, that's cool. If you're like 2-4 miles from the marina, don't say you're over the marina (or the hypermart or whatever). Anyway....

So, we landed (with a 172 not too far behind us that was doing pattern work and that Twin Commanche smoking up his tail, they were BOTH on base), and the guy I was with started to brake a little hard. I told him "Don't smoke the brakes. If they fly the pattern too fast, they can go around." We turned off, and the 172 had slowed down enough to give ample separation. The Commanche apparently didn't care about separation. That dude touched down on the runway while the 172 was still turning off a near-mid field taxiiway. I swear if I live through the next two weeks, it's gonna be a miracle....

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Well, I got mine today.

Getting ready for my IFR checkride tomorrow to have the controller turn us from 360 to 270 for traffic at our 9 o'clock 3 miles at our altitude (its hazy in OH today, maybe 2 mile vis). I got off the foggles to help look. As soon as we turn he immediately has other traffic (SR22) turn left to 360. We saw him finally on our left about 300-500 ft away as he began his turn. Not sure what they were doing, but right after that he asked us to go VFR (1200) and call cleveland if we wanted assistance.

If I can just make one more day!

[Windchill]

[ QUOTE ]
I swear if I live through the next two weeks, it's gonna be a miracle....

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not saying stuff like this to your wife are you?

[Grabo172]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I got mine today.

Getting ready for my IFR checkride tomorrow to have the controller turn us from 360 to 270 for traffic at our 9 o'clock 3 miles at our altitude (its hazy in OH today, maybe 2 mile vis). I got off the foggles to help look. As soon as we turn he immediately has other traffic (SR22) turn left to 360. We saw him finally on our left about 300-500 ft away as he began his turn. Not sure what they were doing, but right after that he asked us to go VFR (1200) and call cleveland if we wanted assistance.

If I can just make one more day!

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got to be kidding me?!?

He turned you RIGHT INTO the traffic and had the traffic turn to your original heading right into YOU?!? Then, with 2 miles vis, he told you to go VFR! Were you on an IFR flight plan?

If so, that guy needs fired!

Yeesh!

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
The Commanche apparently didn't care about separation. That dude touched down on the runway while the 172 was still turning off a near-mid field taxiiway. I swear if I live through the next two weeks, it's gonna be a miracle....

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like good enough separation......you should see 4 planes on the runway rolling out at once, 3000' spacing for similiar. Neat sight.

[kellwolf]

Mike, I doubt this guy was military trained. If he was, then I probably would be okay with it.

Windchill, I said stuff like that my wife ONCE last week. I learned to stop.....

[ComplexHiAv8r]

[ QUOTE ]
You've got to be kidding me?!?

He turned you RIGHT INTO the traffic and had the traffic turn to your original heading right into YOU?!? Then, with 2 miles vis, he told you to go VFR! Were you on an IFR flight plan?

If so, that guy needs fired!

Yeesh!

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope that is what happened. We were on an IFR training instructed to remain VFR (not IFR flight plan), but the hazy was really bad. We were outside his area, but they sometimes will clear you all the way in on the approach. Today he didnt want to after the "what I would call" close call.

[roundout]

[ QUOTE ]
You in the area? Or were you just floating through Arlington?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm from fort worth, originally, but i've been at college for the last 4 years and now i live in denver. i still consider FW home (who wouldn't want to?). i'll get back there some day.

[JDE]

I've got one to tell, not sure it'll be easy to follow though...

We were in the pattern in an Arrow with a Cherokee and some other plane behind us. We were following a Cessna that entered the pattern ahead of us. We extended out downwind a bit to give the Cessna some space, but the Cherokee behind us wasn't paying attention. We turned final behind the Cessna, but the Cherokee, instead of extending his downwind, starts turning base, right into us, same altitude. After he finally figures out that we're out there, he gets behind us again. Our spacing on the Cessna is still not enough and we end up going around because they didn't get off the runway in time.

So the next time around the patch, we have all the same aircraft in the pattern...us in the Arrow, Cherokee behind us and some other plane behind him. Except now instead of a Cessna getting into the flow in front of us, it's a Westwind on the straight in. We're still on the downwind and cannot see the Westwind. We tell tower this and he acknowledges. After giving us an update on the Westwind traffic, we still don't see it and tell tower, but he tells us to turn base anyway. I was a little uneasy about this, but maybe I'm just blind today. Tower tells us the Westwind should be at our 11 o'clock and lower...so I'm looking there...and nothing. I look at our 1-2 o'clock and there he is...higher...we're on a collision course. So I get gruff with the tower and get behind the Westwind and make it a full stop. When I get back to the flight school, the receptionist tells me tower called and wanted to talk to me. So I don't call and before I know it, he's calling again. But belive it or not, he was actually calling to apoligize for screwing up!

There's my "brush with death" if you wan't to call it that. The other one would take entirely too long to post here!

[PilotB]

Ahhhh yes GKY stories about near death experiences. So I shall contribute.

While I was finishing up my instrument training at GKY I was coming back into the airport from the south and crossed over midfield. There was a 172 on final and another Seminole in front of us but everyone had plenty of spacing and was talking. Meanwhile while I'm on downwind for 16 making my calls my instructor comments about a high wing that looked like he was over the HyperMart about traffic pattern altitude. We continued on temporarily losing the other aircraft and made our base to final turn behind the Seminole now on the runway. Everything was going fine until I am about 10 off of the ground and my instructor yells "OH s$#%!". He gets on the radio and calls "high wing on final 34 we are landing 16 at Arlington" with no response. I then see the airport manager on a taxiway with his truck and the yellow light flashing with his shirt off waving in the air trying to get the aircraft to go around. At this point we are both head on and I have no idea what this guy is doing and being so slow going around didn't seem like an option. We manage to land and utilize the heavy duty brakes on the seminole exiting the first taxiway as we watch a high wing Cub taxi off the other end and down to the hangars. I should have gone over there and beat him down but needless to say I was just happy to be rid of him. Pucker factor = 10.

[jtrain609]

We had almost that exact same thing happen a few weeks ago with a Caravan pilot departing down 16 when 34 was in use. That same guy also departed in front of me on my multi add on checkride, turned 45 deg. to the southwest. I thought "Cool, he's going out somewhere southwest of here and he'll call approach now." Nope. He goes out a few miles, then turns to a heading 090 and goes directly in front of me when I get an engine cut.