What would you do?

ready2fly · March 23rd, 2005, 11:55

What would you do if you had a student who you found out was lying to you; whom you confronted about the aforementioned lie, and were lied to some more?

stuckingfk · March 23rd, 2005, 11:59

Kick their butt. jk

Well I'd confront the student one more time, if he/she continues to lie, drop them.

If you don't mind me asking, what was the student lying about?

ready2fly · March 23rd, 2005, 12:29

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't mind me asking, what was the student lying about?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd rather not got into it as it's a very long and conveluted story, but it could end up with said students flight privileges being revoked.

stuckingfk · March 23rd, 2005, 13:56

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you don't mind me asking, what was the student lying about?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd rather not got into it as it's a very long and conveluted story, but it could end up with said students flight privileges being revoked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad situation. Other than that, how are things going in FL?

What kind of job opportunities are available in FL for lets say a 750 hour tt pilot with 200 multi?

Reason I ask, my girl and I are looking to get out of the frozen tundra and start enjoying the outdoors. You can't be outdoors for half the year here because it's too cold. And being inside all the time is depressing.

thanks

ready2fly · March 23rd, 2005, 14:08

Dropping you a PM.

MidlifeFlyer · March 23rd, 2005, 14:21

1. Drop the student

2. If the lie was about violating rules, the FAA's, mine, or the FBO's I'd have them thrown out of the FBO.

ready2fly · March 23rd, 2005, 14:25

[ QUOTE ]
1. Drop the student

2. If the lie was about violating rules, the FAA's, mine, or the FBO's I'd have them thrown out of the FBO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Still up in the air about whether the student violated any FAA, FBO, or personal rules. An internal inquiry (by myself and the Chief Pilot) is under way.

The problem is that we know the student made a mistake in judgment/planning - and instead of just being up front about it, keeps trying tp "spin" it to make it not look so bad...and in so doing, is telling outright lies.

JayAre · March 23rd, 2005, 16:55

Ditto on what Midlife said.

I had a situation kinda simular like this. He wasn't my student but I was the senior flight instructor. He had ran a plane out of gas and crashed just shy of the runway luckly he and his 15 year old girlfriend was able to walk away, but the plane was severly damaged. I felt that he needed to be put on suspension of flight privliages for the consequences of his actions. He felt that it was no big deal with regard to the fact that he got lost, didn't do a proper flight plan with fuel burn calcuations. Forgot the plane held 38 gallons instead of 52 like the newer SP's
Next day the owners of the flight school cleared him to take the cherokee back to take his girlfriend home. I was soon gone after this.
You don't need jokers like this riding under your CFI ticket! cut him loose

MidlifeFlyer · March 23rd, 2005, 16:56

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that we know the student made a mistake in judgment/planning - and instead of just being up front about it, keeps trying to "spin" it to make it not look so bad...and in so doing, is telling outright lies.

[/ QUOTE ]That's a problem and can be a sign of a very dangerous attitude for a pilot - an aversion to taking responsibility.

But, there is often a very human tendency to =initially= rationalize and put up defenses when accused. For a lot of people, this initial reaction is followed later by reflection and acceptance. Has this guy been given some space and a chance to think about it?

MikeD · March 23rd, 2005, 17:32

Give him wall-to-wall counseling.

kellwolf · March 23rd, 2005, 23:16

Honestly, you've given him the option of coming clean, and he chose to keep the lie rolling. If he made an error in judgement, he's still making. To me, that means he hasn't learned from the mistake or, worse, thinks he's getting away with it. I'd confront him one more time with the hard facts: come clean in the next 5 minutes or he's finding another instructor and possibly another school.

MikeD · March 23rd, 2005, 23:21

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, you've given him the option of coming clean, and he chose to keep the lie rolling. If he made an error in judgement, he's still making. To me, that means he hasn't learned from the mistake or, worse, thinks he's getting away with it. I'd confront him one more time with the hard facts: come clean in the next 5 minutes or he's finding another instructor and possibly another school.

[/ QUOTE ]

.....and then.....wall to wall counseling!

Doug Taylor · March 24th, 2005, 01:17

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do if you had a student who you found out was lying to you; whom you confronted about the aforementioned lie, and were lied to some more?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I missed this earlier.

I'd probably shuffle him off to another instructor or if it was serious enough kick his rump out of the flight school.

After you sign the 8710 form, your responsibility for your student doesn't end, it continues on for years and years.

I had several students get in trouble a few years after my last flight with them and the FAA still threatened to kick me in the groin for a variety of reasons.

If he's a liability, he's a liability. It's not worth a visit to the FAA or a potential revocation of your CFI certificate down the road if he ends up violating an FAR and the inspector goes "whole hog" on him.

ready2fly · March 24th, 2005, 07:14

Thanks all for the responses! Just so ya'll know, there was no bent metal....but the potential for that was there had things played out a little (very little) differently.

We are having our "wall-to-wall" today, MikeD.

Around 11:30 a.m., so I'll update this thread later.

ready2fly · March 25th, 2005, 06:52

Well....that was 2 hours of sheer joy.

I had all the evidence, my diagnosis for what went wrong and how to correct it, so forth and so on, and ...at first....my student exhibited every single "Self Defense Mechinism" that I read about in the Aviation Instructors Handbook.

At first, it was pure denial. Then she went straight for projection. Throw in some agression and some pure loss of reality and there you have it.

The Chief Pilot and another instructor who had unfortunately been involved, sat in for a few minutes, said their piece, then left me to it.

I wasn't accusatory, nor completely self deprocating. I pointed out where I thought I had failed as her instructor and what I planned on doing to correct it. She pointed out that the mistakes she made had nothing to do with my instruction or lack thereof...she just had an "off day" (that went WAY - WAAAAAY off!).

I also didn't candy coat the numerous things - remedial things - she did wrong that could have killed her, nor that the attitude she was exhibiting could one day be deadly for her and potentially others.

I addressed what I thought would be the best way for us to move forward from that point and how we were - together - going to correct all the mistakes so that they never ever happen again.

In the end, I believe we came to an understanding that the situation was not something to be taken lightly.

We'll be moving forward in her training and it will not happen again.

MidlifeFlyer · March 25th, 2005, 08:02

[ QUOTE ]
.at first....my student exhibited every single "Self Defense Mechinism" that I read about in the Aviation Instructors Handbook.

[/ QUOTE ]Amazing how that old book comes in handy

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't accusatory, nor completely self deprocating. I pointed out where I thought I had failed as her instructor and what I planned on doing to correct it. She pointed out that the mistakes she made had nothing to do with my instruction or lack thereof...she just had an "off day" (that went WAY - WAAAAAY off!).

I also didn't candy coat the numerous things - remedial things - she did wrong that could have killed her, nor that the attitude she was exhibiting could one day be deadly for her and potentially others.

I addressed what I thought would be the best way for us to move forward from that point and how we were - together - going to correct all the mistakes so that they never ever happen again.

In the end, I believe we came to an understanding that the situation was not something to be taken lightly.

We'll be moving forward in her training and it will not happen again.

[/ QUOTE ]Nice job. Very nice.

kellwolf · March 25th, 2005, 15:06

Good job, Stan. If/when I run into this situation, I hope I can handle it as well as you did. The morbid curiosity in me really wants to know what she did, though.

Windchill · March 25th, 2005, 20:24

[ QUOTE ]
The morbid curiosity in me really wants to know what she did, though

[/ QUOTE ]

Same with the rest of us, although I feel this is getting filed alongside the "Who really killed Kennedy?" files.

kellwolf · March 26th, 2005, 20:07

"Lee Harvey Oswald. He acted alone with a magic bullet. That's right, magic exists."

March 23rd, 2005, 11:55	#1
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,182	What would you do? What would you do if you had a student who you found out was lying to you; whom you confronted about the aforementioned lie, and were lied to some more?

March 23rd, 2005, 11:59	#2
stuckingfk Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: El Forko Grande Posts: 2,605	Re: What would you do? Kick their butt. jk Well I'd confront the student one more time, if he/she continues to lie, drop them. If you don't mind me asking, what was the student lying about?

March 23rd, 2005, 12:29	#3
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,182	Re: What would you do? [ QUOTE ] If you don't mind me asking, what was the student lying about? [/ QUOTE ] I'd rather not got into it as it's a very long and conveluted story, but it could end up with said students flight privileges being revoked.

March 23rd, 2005, 13:56	#4
stuckingfk Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: El Forko Grande Posts: 2,605	Re: What would you do? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If you don't mind me asking, what was the student lying about? [/ QUOTE ] I'd rather not got into it as it's a very long and conveluted story, but it could end up with said students flight privileges being revoked. [/ QUOTE ] Bad situation. Other than that, how are things going in FL? What kind of job opportunities are available in FL for lets say a 750 hour tt pilot with 200 multi? Reason I ask, my girl and I are looking to get out of the frozen tundra and start enjoying the outdoors. You can't be outdoors for half the year here because it's too cold. And being inside all the time is depressing. thanks

March 23rd, 2005, 14:08	#5
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,182	Re: What would you do? Dropping you a PM.

March 23rd, 2005, 14:21	#6
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 3,027	Re: What would you do? 1. Drop the student 2. If the lie was about violating rules, the FAA's, mine, or the FBO's I'd have them thrown out of the FBO.

March 23rd, 2005, 14:25	#7
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,182	Re: What would you do? [ QUOTE ] 1. Drop the student 2. If the lie was about violating rules, the FAA's, mine, or the FBO's I'd have them thrown out of the FBO. [/ QUOTE ] Still up in the air about whether the student violated any FAA, FBO, or personal rules. An internal inquiry (by myself and the Chief Pilot) is under way. The problem is that we know the student made a mistake in judgment/planning - and instead of just being up front about it, keeps trying tp "spin" it to make it not look so bad...and in so doing, is telling outright lies.

March 23rd, 2005, 16:55	#8
JayAre Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Multiple Posts: 1,021	Re: What would you do? Ditto on what Midlife said. I had a situation kinda simular like this. He wasn't my student but I was the senior flight instructor. He had ran a plane out of gas and crashed just shy of the runway luckly he and his 15 year old girlfriend was able to walk away, but the plane was severly damaged. I felt that he needed to be put on suspension of flight privliages for the consequences of his actions. He felt that it was no big deal with regard to the fact that he got lost, didn't do a proper flight plan with fuel burn calcuations. Forgot the plane held 38 gallons instead of 52 like the newer SP's Next day the owners of the flight school cleared him to take the cherokee back to take his girlfriend home. I was soon gone after this. You don't need jokers like this riding under your CFI ticket! cut him loose

March 23rd, 2005, 16:56	#9
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 3,027	Re: What would you do? [ QUOTE ] The problem is that we know the student made a mistake in judgment/planning - and instead of just being up front about it, keeps trying to "spin" it to make it not look so bad...and in so doing, is telling outright lies. [/ QUOTE ]That's a problem and can be a sign of a very dangerous attitude for a pilot - an aversion to taking responsibility. But, there is often a very human tendency to =initially= rationalize and put up defenses when accused. For a lot of people, this initial reaction is followed later by reflection and acceptance. Has this guy been given some space and a chance to think about it?

March 23rd, 2005, 17:32	#10
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: What would you do? Give him wall-to-wall counseling.

March 23rd, 2005, 23:16	#11
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,855	Re: What would you do? Honestly, you've given him the option of coming clean, and he chose to keep the lie rolling. If he made an error in judgement, he's still making. To me, that means he hasn't learned from the mistake or, worse, thinks he's getting away with it. I'd confront him one more time with the hard facts: come clean in the next 5 minutes or he's finding another instructor and possibly another school.

March 23rd, 2005, 23:21	#12
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: What would you do? [ QUOTE ] Honestly, you've given him the option of coming clean, and he chose to keep the lie rolling. If he made an error in judgement, he's still making. To me, that means he hasn't learned from the mistake or, worse, thinks he's getting away with it. I'd confront him one more time with the hard facts: come clean in the next 5 minutes or he's finding another instructor and possibly another school. [/ QUOTE ] .....and then.....wall to wall counseling!

March 24th, 2005, 01:17	#13
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,164 Blog Entries: 1	Re: What would you do? [ QUOTE ] What would you do if you had a student who you found out was lying to you; whom you confronted about the aforementioned lie, and were lied to some more? [/ QUOTE ] Sorry I missed this earlier. I'd probably shuffle him off to another instructor or if it was serious enough kick his rump out of the flight school. After you sign the 8710 form, your responsibility for your student doesn't end, it continues on for years and years. I had several students get in trouble a few years after my last flight with them and the FAA still threatened to kick me in the groin for a variety of reasons. If he's a liability, he's a liability. It's not worth a visit to the FAA or a potential revocation of your CFI certificate down the road if he ends up violating an FAR and the inspector goes "whole hog" on him.

March 24th, 2005, 07:14	#14
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,182	Re: What would you do? Thanks all for the responses! Just so ya'll know, there was no bent metal....but the potential for that was there had things played out a little (very little) differently. We are having our "wall-to-wall" today, MikeD. Around 11:30 a.m., so I'll update this thread later.

March 25th, 2005, 06:52	#15
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,182	Re: What would you do? Well....that was 2 hours of sheer joy. I had all the evidence, my diagnosis for what went wrong and how to correct it, so forth and so on, and ...at first....my student exhibited every single "Self Defense Mechinism" that I read about in the Aviation Instructors Handbook. At first, it was pure denial. Then she went straight for projection. Throw in some agression and some pure loss of reality and there you have it. The Chief Pilot and another instructor who had unfortunately been involved, sat in for a few minutes, said their piece, then left me to it. I wasn't accusatory, nor completely self deprocating. I pointed out where I thought I had failed as her instructor and what I planned on doing to correct it. She pointed out that the mistakes she made had nothing to do with my instruction or lack thereof...she just had an "off day" (that went WAY - WAAAAAY off!). I also didn't candy coat the numerous things - remedial things - she did wrong that could have killed her, nor that the attitude she was exhibiting could one day be deadly for her and potentially others. I addressed what I thought would be the best way for us to move forward from that point and how we were - together - going to correct all the mistakes so that they never ever happen again. In the end, I believe we came to an understanding that the situation was not something to be taken lightly. We'll be moving forward in her training and it will not happen again.

March 25th, 2005, 08:02	#16
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 3,027	Re: What would you do? [ QUOTE ] .at first....my student exhibited every single "Self Defense Mechinism" that I read about in the Aviation Instructors Handbook. [/ QUOTE ]Amazing how that old book comes in handy [ QUOTE ] I wasn't accusatory, nor completely self deprocating. I pointed out where I thought I had failed as her instructor and what I planned on doing to correct it. She pointed out that the mistakes she made had nothing to do with my instruction or lack thereof...she just had an "off day" (that went WAY - WAAAAAY off!). I also didn't candy coat the numerous things - remedial things - she did wrong that could have killed her, nor that the attitude she was exhibiting could one day be deadly for her and potentially others. I addressed what I thought would be the best way for us to move forward from that point and how we were - together - going to correct all the mistakes so that they never ever happen again. In the end, I believe we came to an understanding that the situation was not something to be taken lightly. We'll be moving forward in her training and it will not happen again. [/ QUOTE ]Nice job. Very nice.

March 25th, 2005, 15:06	#17
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,855	Re: What would you do? Good job, Stan. If/when I run into this situation, I hope I can handle it as well as you did. The morbid curiosity in me really wants to know what she did, though.

March 25th, 2005, 20:24	#18
Windchill Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Mid-Atlantic, KMRB Posts: 1,925	Re: What would you do? [ QUOTE ] The morbid curiosity in me really wants to know what she did, though [/ QUOTE ] Same with the rest of us, although I feel this is getting filed alongside the "Who really killed Kennedy?" files.

March 26th, 2005, 20:07	#19
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,855	Re: What would you do? "Lee Harvey Oswald. He acted alone with a magic bullet. That's right, magic exists."

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode