Right seat in the Arrow

Dazzler · March 6th, 2005, 21:40

As part of my CFI training, I flew in the right seat of the Arrow for the first time today. And it was a real challenge.

(I've only flown from the right seat once before and that was in a Warrior)

It was straight into power off stalls - from the right seat! - I didn't do too bad but trying to coordinate the throttle with my left hand and the yoke with my right seemed weird. I ended up over compensating when recovering, and pitched the nose way forward.

Then we did power on stalls. The first one was terrible - not enough rudder. But the second one was good.

Steep turns were next and they went well - probably the best thing I did today.

Then the CFI cut the power a couple of times for some emergency forced landings. The first was bad - the second went well. Are you spotting a pattern here?

Then it was back to the airport for some landings. We did 4 landings and they went from really bad to quite good.

I hope that the more I practice this, the better I will become.

It was a beautiful day to fly today. Most of the snow has gone!

Derek_S · March 6th, 2005, 21:44

Sounds like fun! Is it really that much harder flying in the right seat?

Dazzler · March 6th, 2005, 21:47

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like fun! Is it really that much harder flying in the right seat?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say that it's necessarily "harder" but it does give you a different perspective which takes some getting used to. I did feel like a private pilot student all over again for the first few minutes though!
Also it didn't help that I hadn't flown the Arrow for a while and was a little behind the airplane at first. I forgot how that aircraft sinks like a rock when you idle the power !

BoilerPilot2007 · March 6th, 2005, 21:47

It takes a little getting used to - but the plane flies the same!

slamma1906 · March 7th, 2005, 03:04

Yep, the plane will fly the same. Its pretty much like any other transition, just takes time and practice. It took me about 15 hrs to get used to it from the right seat.

gtpilot · March 7th, 2005, 10:08

I remember many of my approaches being crooked when I first tried landing from the right. Now you can' t get me into the left seat.

MikeD · March 7th, 2005, 10:21

[ QUOTE ]
- I didn't do too bad but trying to coordinate the throttle with my left hand and the yoke with my right seemed weird. I

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that weird? Left/Right where the throttle/stick is supposed to be.

Dazzler · March 7th, 2005, 11:56

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
- I didn't do too bad but trying to coordinate the throttle with my left hand and the yoke with my right seemed weird. I

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that weird? Left/Right where the throttle/stick is supposed to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

because I initially found myself attempting to increase power with my right hand = nose dive!

Lima_Charlie · March 7th, 2005, 15:44

You are messing w/ your "primacy". Your body is so used to doing things the way it has always done them, that it wants to keep doing them the same way. Now everything is different. You are using different hands on the controls, your sight picture is different, your view of the instruments is different. It takes a little while, but you will get used to it. I am to the point that I hardly ever sit in the left seat, even if I am solo.

MikeD · March 7th, 2005, 16:14

[ QUOTE ]
You are messing w/ your "primacy". Your body is so used to doing things the way it has always done them, that it wants to keep doing them the same way. Now everything is different. You are using different hands on the controls, your sight picture is different,

[/ QUOTE ]

You make it sound like you're re-learning how to fly in the right seat.

[ QUOTE ]

your view of the instruments is different. It takes a little while, but you will get used to it. I am to the point that I hardly ever sit in the left seat, even if I am solo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel more comfortable in the right seat too.

Derek_S · March 7th, 2005, 17:34

[ QUOTE ]
I am to the point that I hardly ever sit in the left seat, even if I am solo.

[/ QUOTE ]

It never came across my mind that you could do that. I figured there was no regulation behind it, but just never really thought about it.

Dazzler · March 7th, 2005, 17:46

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am to the point that I hardly ever sit in the left seat, even if I am solo.

[/ QUOTE ]

It never came across my mind that you could do that. I figured there was no regulation behind it, but just never really thought about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as you're "checked out" to fly solo from the right seat, then you're fine.

The time to worry is if you're flying solo from the back seat!

Lima_Charlie · March 7th, 2005, 18:04

Why would an instructor not be "checked out" to fly from the right seat? Now if you are not instructing, there would be no reason to fly from the right seat.

EatSleepFly · March 7th, 2005, 18:13

[ QUOTE ]
The time to worry is if you're flying solo from the back seat!

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I've got about 15 hours flying solo in the back seat of an airplane........

MikeD · March 7th, 2005, 20:32

[ QUOTE ]
Why would an instructor not be "checked out" to fly from the right seat? Now if you are not instructing, there would be no reason to fly from the right seat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is there even a formal "right seat checkout"? And why wouldn't any pilot not be able to fly it from the right seat without said checkout? Is this some sort of logbook endorsement? Please say this isn't so, or I'll lose that much more respect for GA.

pilot602 · March 7th, 2005, 20:48

There is no FAA "checkout" for flying from the right seat. No endorsement. No nothing. Now, some FBOs may "require" some kind of "checkout" but it has nothing to do with the CFRs (FARs).

USMCmech · March 7th, 2005, 20:49

In the eye's of the FAA, there is no such thing as a "checkout".

If you are liscensed to fly that catagory and class of aircraft with the apropriate endorsements, then you can leagly hop in and fire it up.

If you are qualified to fly a C-182 (private SEL, complex & high perf endorsments), then you can hop right into a C-208 Caravan.

The fact that you have never touched a turbo prop is irealevant in the eyes of the FAA.

The same thing goes for which seat you fly the airplane from, the FAA dosne't know or care.

I have heard of several people training for their Comercial checkride from the right seat, then taking their CFI the next day.

MikeD · March 7th, 2005, 20:55

[ QUOTE ]
There is no FAA "checkout" for flying from the right seat. No endorsement. No nothing. Now, some FBOs may "require" some kind of "checkout" but it has nothing to do with the CFRs (FARs).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm relieved. I was worried there for a minute that the government machine had just created another dumbo rule for GA.

Grabo172 · March 7th, 2005, 21:18

[ QUOTE ]

If you are qualified to fly a C-182 (private SEL, complex & high perf endorsments), then you can hop right into a C-208 Caravan.

The fact that you have never touched a turbo prop is irealevant in the eyes of the FAA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really true, a caravan is a Turbo-Jet Powered airplane... therefore IAW

§ 61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and authorization requirements.
(a) Type ratings required. A person who acts as a pilot in command of any of the following aircraft must hold a type rating for that aircraft:

(1) Large aircraft (except lighter-than-air).

(2) Turbojet-powered airplanes.

(3) Other aircraft specified by the Administrator through aircraft type certificate procedures

So you would need more training for it.

Just a technicality

MikeD · March 7th, 2005, 21:26

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If you are qualified to fly a C-182 (private SEL, complex & high perf endorsments), then you can hop right into a C-208 Caravan.

The fact that you have never touched a turbo prop is irealevant in the eyes of the FAA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really true, a caravan is a Turbo-Jet Powered airplane... therefore IAW

§ 61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and authorization requirements.
(a) Type ratings required. A person who acts as a pilot in command of any of the following aircraft must hold a type rating for that aircraft:

(1) Large aircraft (except lighter-than-air).

(2) Turbojet-powered airplanes.

(3) Other aircraft specified by the Administrator through aircraft type certificate procedures

So you would need more training for it.

Just a technicality

[/ QUOTE ]

Turbopropeller aircraft aren't covered under the FAA definition of Turbojet, and additionally, there's no type rating for the C-208. Turbojet is for straight jet aircraft. Turboprops are covered for type ratings based on the 12,500 weight rule,

pilot602 · March 7th, 2005, 21:26

No.

A caravan is a turboprop and not a turbojet. Therefore it does not require a type rating. Only pure "jets" and aircraft that weigh over 12,500lbs. requrie type rating. Turbo props do not unless they happen to weigh more than 12,500lbs.

SteveC · March 7th, 2005, 21:29

For example the King Air series 90, 100, and 200 do not require a type rating, while the 300 and 350 are over 12,500 pounds max. gross, therefore do require a type rating for PIC.

Derek_S · March 7th, 2005, 21:37

So if your acting as SIC you don't need a type rating, therefore you can log the hours?

USMCmech · March 7th, 2005, 21:43

FYI

Some aircraft with very powerful engines (mostly warbirds) that don't require normal type ratings require an LOA or letter of authorization.

I forget the exact HP (600?) that requires a LOA, but Warbirds like the AT-6 need one.

Grabo172 · March 7th, 2005, 21:45

Do'oh... Thanks for the enlightenment... Darn Regs and thier "Words" (see my quote below, I should follow my own logic

)

March 6th, 2005, 21:40	#1
Dazzler Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 922	Right seat in the Arrow As part of my CFI training, I flew in the right seat of the Arrow for the first time today. And it was a real challenge. (I've only flown from the right seat once before and that was in a Warrior) It was straight into power off stalls - from the right seat! - I didn't do too bad but trying to coordinate the throttle with my left hand and the yoke with my right seemed weird. I ended up over compensating when recovering, and pitched the nose way forward. Then we did power on stalls. The first one was terrible - not enough rudder. But the second one was good. Steep turns were next and they went well - probably the best thing I did today. Then the CFI cut the power a couple of times for some emergency forced landings. The first was bad - the second went well. Are you spotting a pattern here? Then it was back to the airport for some landings. We did 4 landings and they went from really bad to quite good. I hope that the more I practice this, the better I will become. It was a beautiful day to fly today. Most of the snow has gone!

March 6th, 2005, 21:44	#2
Derek_S Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pleasanton, CA Posts: 398	Re: Right seat in the Arrow Sounds like fun! Is it really that much harder flying in the right seat?

March 6th, 2005, 21:47	#3
Dazzler Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 922	Re: Right seat in the Arrow [ QUOTE ] Sounds like fun! Is it really that much harder flying in the right seat? [/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't say that it's necessarily "harder" but it does give you a different perspective which takes some getting used to. I did feel like a private pilot student all over again for the first few minutes though! Also it didn't help that I hadn't flown the Arrow for a while and was a little behind the airplane at first. I forgot how that aircraft sinks like a rock when you idle the power !

March 6th, 2005, 21:47	#4
BoilerPilot2007 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 444	Re: Right seat in the Arrow It takes a little getting used to - but the plane flies the same!

March 7th, 2005, 03:04	#5
slamma1906 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: ORF Posts: 128	Re: Right seat in the Arrow Yep, the plane will fly the same. Its pretty much like any other transition, just takes time and practice. It took me about 15 hrs to get used to it from the right seat.

March 7th, 2005, 10:08	#6
gtpilot Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: GA Posts: 441	Re: Right seat in the Arrow I remember many of my approaches being crooked when I first tried landing from the right. Now you can' t get me into the left seat.

March 7th, 2005, 10:21	#7
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Right seat in the Arrow [ QUOTE ] - I didn't do too bad but trying to coordinate the throttle with my left hand and the yoke with my right seemed weird. I [/ QUOTE ] Why is that weird? Left/Right where the throttle/stick is supposed to be.

March 7th, 2005, 11:56	#8
Dazzler Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 922	Re: Right seat in the Arrow [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] - I didn't do too bad but trying to coordinate the throttle with my left hand and the yoke with my right seemed weird. I [/ QUOTE ] Why is that weird? Left/Right where the throttle/stick is supposed to be. [/ QUOTE ] because I initially found myself attempting to increase power with my right hand = nose dive!

March 7th, 2005, 15:44	#9
Lima_Charlie Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 563	Re: Right seat in the Arrow You are messing w/ your "primacy". Your body is so used to doing things the way it has always done them, that it wants to keep doing them the same way. Now everything is different. You are using different hands on the controls, your sight picture is different, your view of the instruments is different. It takes a little while, but you will get used to it. I am to the point that I hardly ever sit in the left seat, even if I am solo.

March 7th, 2005, 16:14	#10
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Right seat in the Arrow [ QUOTE ] You are messing w/ your "primacy". Your body is so used to doing things the way it has always done them, that it wants to keep doing them the same way. Now everything is different. You are using different hands on the controls, your sight picture is different, [/ QUOTE ] You make it sound like you're re-learning how to fly in the right seat. [ QUOTE ] your view of the instruments is different. It takes a little while, but you will get used to it. I am to the point that I hardly ever sit in the left seat, even if I am solo. [/ QUOTE ] I feel more comfortable in the right seat too.

March 7th, 2005, 17:34	#11
Derek_S Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pleasanton, CA Posts: 398	Re: Right seat in the Arrow [ QUOTE ] I am to the point that I hardly ever sit in the left seat, even if I am solo. [/ QUOTE ] It never came across my mind that you could do that. I figured there was no regulation behind it, but just never really thought about it.

March 7th, 2005, 17:46	#12
Dazzler Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 922	Re: Right seat in the Arrow [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I am to the point that I hardly ever sit in the left seat, even if I am solo. [/ QUOTE ] It never came across my mind that you could do that. I figured there was no regulation behind it, but just never really thought about it. [/ QUOTE ] As long as you're "checked out" to fly solo from the right seat, then you're fine. The time to worry is if you're flying solo from the back seat!

March 7th, 2005, 18:04	#13
Lima_Charlie Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 563	Re: Right seat in the Arrow Why would an instructor not be "checked out" to fly from the right seat? Now if you are not instructing, there would be no reason to fly from the right seat.

March 7th, 2005, 18:13	#14
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: Right seat in the Arrow [ QUOTE ] The time to worry is if you're flying solo from the back seat! [/ QUOTE ] Why? I've got about 15 hours flying solo in the back seat of an airplane........

March 7th, 2005, 20:32	#15
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Right seat in the Arrow [ QUOTE ] Why would an instructor not be "checked out" to fly from the right seat? Now if you are not instructing, there would be no reason to fly from the right seat. [/ QUOTE ] Why is there even a formal "right seat checkout"? And why wouldn't any pilot not be able to fly it from the right seat without said checkout? Is this some sort of logbook endorsement? Please say this isn't so, or I'll lose that much more respect for GA.

March 7th, 2005, 20:48	#16
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,750	Re: Right seat in the Arrow There is no FAA "checkout" for flying from the right seat. No endorsement. No nothing. Now, some FBOs may "require" some kind of "checkout" but it has nothing to do with the CFRs (FARs).

March 7th, 2005, 20:49	#17
USMCmech Old Skool Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas TX Posts: 1,622	Re: Right seat in the Arrow In the eye's of the FAA, there is no such thing as a "checkout". If you are liscensed to fly that catagory and class of aircraft with the apropriate endorsements, then you can leagly hop in and fire it up. If you are qualified to fly a C-182 (private SEL, complex & high perf endorsments), then you can hop right into a C-208 Caravan. The fact that you have never touched a turbo prop is irealevant in the eyes of the FAA. The same thing goes for which seat you fly the airplane from, the FAA dosne't know or care. I have heard of several people training for their Comercial checkride from the right seat, then taking their CFI the next day.

March 7th, 2005, 20:55	#18
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Right seat in the Arrow [ QUOTE ] There is no FAA "checkout" for flying from the right seat. No endorsement. No nothing. Now, some FBOs may "require" some kind of "checkout" but it has nothing to do with the CFRs (FARs). [/ QUOTE ] I'm relieved. I was worried there for a minute that the government machine had just created another dumbo rule for GA.

March 7th, 2005, 21:18	#19
Grabo172 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Peterborough, NH Posts: 1,271	Re: Right seat in the Arrow [ QUOTE ] If you are qualified to fly a C-182 (private SEL, complex & high perf endorsments), then you can hop right into a C-208 Caravan. The fact that you have never touched a turbo prop is irealevant in the eyes of the FAA. [/ QUOTE ] Not really true, a caravan is a Turbo-Jet Powered airplane... therefore IAW § 61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and authorization requirements. (a) Type ratings required. A person who acts as a pilot in command of any of the following aircraft must hold a type rating for that aircraft: (1) Large aircraft (except lighter-than-air). (2) Turbojet-powered airplanes. (3) Other aircraft specified by the Administrator through aircraft type certificate procedures So you would need more training for it. Just a technicality

March 7th, 2005, 21:26	#20
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Right seat in the Arrow [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If you are qualified to fly a C-182 (private SEL, complex & high perf endorsments), then you can hop right into a C-208 Caravan. The fact that you have never touched a turbo prop is irealevant in the eyes of the FAA. [/ QUOTE ] Not really true, a caravan is a Turbo-Jet Powered airplane... therefore IAW § 61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and authorization requirements. (a) Type ratings required. A person who acts as a pilot in command of any of the following aircraft must hold a type rating for that aircraft: (1) Large aircraft (except lighter-than-air). (2) Turbojet-powered airplanes. (3) Other aircraft specified by the Administrator through aircraft type certificate procedures So you would need more training for it. Just a technicality [/ QUOTE ] Turbopropeller aircraft aren't covered under the FAA definition of Turbojet, and additionally, there's no type rating for the C-208. Turbojet is for straight jet aircraft. Turboprops are covered for type ratings based on the 12,500 weight rule,

March 7th, 2005, 21:26	#21
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,750	Re: Right seat in the Arrow No. A caravan is a turboprop and not a turbojet. Therefore it does not require a type rating. Only pure "jets" and aircraft that weigh over 12,500lbs. requrie type rating. Turbo props do not unless they happen to weigh more than 12,500lbs.

March 7th, 2005, 21:29	#22
SteveC Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,485	Re: Right seat in the Arrow For example the King Air series 90, 100, and 200 do not require a type rating, while the 300 and 350 are over 12,500 pounds max. gross, therefore do require a type rating for PIC.

March 7th, 2005, 21:37	#23
Derek_S Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pleasanton, CA Posts: 398	Re: Right seat in the Arrow So if your acting as SIC you don't need a type rating, therefore you can log the hours?

March 7th, 2005, 21:43	#24
USMCmech Old Skool Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas TX Posts: 1,622	Re: Right seat in the Arrow FYI Some aircraft with very powerful engines (mostly warbirds) that don't require normal type ratings require an LOA or letter of authorization. I forget the exact HP (600?) that requires a LOA, but Warbirds like the AT-6 need one.

March 7th, 2005, 21:45	#25
Grabo172 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Peterborough, NH Posts: 1,271	Re: Right seat in the Arrow Do'oh... Thanks for the enlightenment... Darn Regs and thier "Words" (see my quote below, I should follow my own logic )

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode