Aircraft Logbooks

FOD · February 21st, 2005, 18:52

Embarrassed to admit that throughout all my training, I have never seen nor had any instructor go through an aircraft logbook with me. Now that I am instructing I feel that this is something that should be taught. Thus, I’m going to get one of the aircrafts logbooks and go over it with my students. However, I am looking for some info on what to look for and where to find the important sign offs. I basically want to point out where the AV1ATE is so they know where to look or anything else that might be important.

USMCmech · February 21st, 2005, 21:21

I'm swamped at work at the moment (as I chew my lunch and type), but I'll try to do a good in depth post on this later.

Grabo172 · February 21st, 2005, 22:14

Wow, NEVER!

Very strange, all of my checkrides basically either started or ended by proving that the plane we're about to fly is legal, ie showing all the appropriate signoffs in the log book.

But, we all don't have the same examiners.

You are looking for quite a few things,

You need the annual inspection sign off in all the log books (airframe, powerpalnt, and propeller. Some logs have avionics too).

You need to have the most recent 100 hr inspection (if the plane is operated for hire).

The 24 month inpections of the Pitot/Static system, and the ELT. Need also, the ELT battery time.

Then the IFR items, such as the VOR 30 day checks.

Also you have to be able to prove all AD's are complied with, the logs I usually have seem have an AD section in them, but the signatures might be strewn throughout the other logs.

USMCMech, what am I forgetting?

Hope this helps!

USMCmech · February 22nd, 2005, 00:59

I never really looked at one till I was working on my CFI, and that was only a cursory glance. They never came up in any checkride. I've since learned a good deal about aircraft maintence (most of it not at any school).

A maintence logbook is simply a chronological record of all the maintence and inspections performed on a airplane. It can be as simple as a spiral notebook, or as complex as the monsters carried on the airliners.

Many airplanes have seperate logbooks for the engine, propeler & avionics. This way the logbook for the engine can be transfered with the engine if it is ever sold. This also keeps the master A/C log from getting too complex.

99% of the time you will only care about the A/C log. It is the master that will stay with the plane from the date it is built till it is scraped.

Anytime you are flying a plane you have the right to see the logbooks for that plane. Most of the time if you ask to see them, the owner won't let you take them out of his sight. This isn't usually an issue with the maintence, but they are worried about you loosing the book. A plane with lost logbooks looses about 20% of it's value. Anytime a FBO refuses to let you see the maintence logs, take your buisness elsewhere.

As the pilot you are responsible for making sure your airplane is in an airworthy cndition. You aren't expected to be a expert, but read the planes history to see if there is anything recent that you need to be aware of. Many times a problem will occur due to recent maintence. For example I would be very concerned about flying a newly installed engine over water, but if it's been running fine for 1000 hrs I wouldn't worry as much.

The things you as a pilot need to look for are:

The last annual and/or 100hr inspection.

Pitot/static check in the past 24 months (useually a part of the annual)

Transponder check in the last 24 months (also usually a part of the annual)

ELT battery check/replacement.

ADs should be complied with as part of the annual/100hr.

Most of the time VOR 30 day checks are kept seperate from the logbook, since they are done so frequently. Most owners I have seen keep a small notepad in the cockpit for this.

As a practical matter this is all you will be expected to be familiar with as a pilot.

Pilots and owners can performe "preventative maintence" which is defined in FAR 43, apendix A, para c (it's a long list that will surprise you). If you chage a tire as allowed under preventative maint. You will have to make a logbook entry that includes the date, A/C time, a description of the work performed, your name, and certificate type and number.

Example:

2/21/05 3498 TTAF
Removed wheel and tire. Installed new Goodyear tire per maufactuers instructions. Reinstalled wheel per Cessna service maunal 12-54-B. Performed taxi and brake checks.

Scott Beadle PPL# 1234567

Grabo172 · February 22nd, 2005, 07:21

[ QUOTE ]

USMCMech, what am I forgetting?

[/ QUOTE ]

TRANSPONDER CHECKS

You da man!

FOD · February 22nd, 2005, 13:35

Ok, so theres an airframe, powerplant, propeller, and possibly an avionics logbook

Annual- found in all logbooks
VOR- i know where to find that
100hour- found where?
Pitot Static System- found where?
Transponder- assuming avionics logbook if it has one, where would it be if i didnt
ELT- found where?

USMCmech · February 22nd, 2005, 13:53

[ QUOTE ]
Annual- found in all logbooks
VOR- i know where to find that
100hour- found where?
Pitot Static System- found where?
Transponder- assuming avionics logbook if it has one, where would it be if i didnt
ELT- found where?

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't seen many Avionics logbooks, but they are out there.

Otherwise all this should be in the main A/C logbook.

The 100 hr is identical to an annual, except that it can not superseed the annual.

Pitot/static, ELT, & transponder checks are useually done as part of the annual. However they need seperate entries apart from the annual sign off.

GregCollins2 · February 22nd, 2005, 17:37

Just a couple notes - Pitot static and transponder may be lumped together in one entry in the airframe log. The ELT is part of just about every 100 hour/Annual checklist and may not show up in a separate entry, depending on the mechanic. The annual and 100 hour entries are only required in the Airframe Logbook, although most mechanics will make entries in every logbook.

JayAre · February 22nd, 2005, 18:01

Every Checkride had to have them. Pretty much learned by hanging around A&P's

ryanmickG · February 24th, 2005, 21:02

Checkrides are not required to have 100 hour inspections.Checkride are not flight instruction nor are they a commercial operation.

Pooch · February 25th, 2005, 09:48

[ QUOTE ]
Checkrides are not required to have 100 hour inspections.Checkride are not flight instruction nor are they a commercial operation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless, of course, the aircraft is rented for the checkride (for hire).

Also, just to add a little info to what was said earlier, some mechanics make a notation when they do annual/100-hr inspections that all AD's have been complied with at that time. This would save time if you were required to show that the aircraft were airworthy (for example, on a checkride, as I had to find out the hard way).

GregCollins2 · February 25th, 2005, 19:59

One other note, when a mechanic or IA signs off on an annual or 100 hour inspection, the inspection is only good for all previous work up to the time the signature is placed in the log book. In other words, the second the Annual is complete and the aircraft rolls out the hangar door, it could be unairworthy again. Non-emergency type AD's are issued every two weeks and it is the responsibility of the owner/operator to ensure compliance. Almost all non-emergency AD's allow for the aircraft to be operated until the next Annual/100 Hour/Hourly Limit, but emergency AD's can ground the airplane immediately.

FlyboyZR1 · February 25th, 2005, 22:14

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checkrides are not required to have 100 hour inspections.Checkride are not flight instruction nor are they a commercial operation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless, of course, the aircraft is rented for the checkride (for hire)

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you rent an airplane for the checkride it doesn't need a 100hr. The only time a 100-hour is required is when carrying passengers for hire or flight instruction for hire. Taking a checkride is not for hire.

91.409 (b)

ryanmickG · February 25th, 2005, 22:22

SteveC · February 25th, 2005, 22:38

Guys.......go back and read the thread again. JayAre's not saying that you need a 100 hour for checkrides, he's saying that you need to be able to review the logbooks for airworthiness, AD's, etc., at every checkride. ryanmickG misunderstands that statement and then everybody's off to the races, only it's the wrong race track......

[/mixing metaphors]

ryanmickG · February 25th, 2005, 23:40

Sorry steveC for getting off track, but Ive been a CFI for 2 years and have alot of signoffs and never once did the examiner ask to see any ADs on the airplanes. Not to give the impression that you shouldnt teach your student how to find them.

mtsu_av8er · February 27th, 2005, 01:15

[ QUOTE ]
. . . but Ive been a CFI for 2 years and have alot of signoffs and never once did the examiner ask to see any ADs on the airplanes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was required to show them on my Instrument, Commercial and CFI-I (initial) checkrides.

dgRoot · March 2nd, 2005, 16:51

I was also required to show them for my commercial and CFI. Luckily, I work as a dispatcher for the school so I'm very familiar with the log books.

Lima_Charlie · March 2nd, 2005, 23:48

One other thing to mention... Make sure you know what kind of inspection program the airplane is on. Annual and 100hr have been mentioned, but a progressive schedule is also possible. All of our a/c are on a 50 hour, 4 event progressive schedule. 4 events equal 1 cycle. 1 cycle equals the annual. A progressive schedule is typically custom made to the for school. For some reason, we chose a 4 event schedule, but it could just as easily been a 5 or 3 event schedule.

Pooch · March 3rd, 2005, 10:27

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checkrides are not required to have 100 hour inspections.Checkride are not flight instruction nor are they a commercial operation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless, of course, the aircraft is rented for the checkride (for hire)

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you rent an airplane for the checkride it doesn't need a 100hr. The only time a 100-hour is required is when carrying passengers for hire or flight instruction for hire. Taking a checkride is not for hire.

91.409 (b)

[/ QUOTE ]

FlyboyZR1... You are right, I was wrong. I misunderstood the FAR, and I'm going to lower my head in shame for a minute or two and then study the FAR/AIM for a couple of hours to make up for it.

FlyboyZR1 · March 4th, 2005, 20:19

Don't worry about it Pooch the 100hr is one of those things that people aren't 100% sure about, and I think the "for hire" stuff can make it confusing.

February 21st, 2005, 18:52	#1
FOD Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 213	Aircraft Logbooks Embarrassed to admit that throughout all my training, I have never seen nor had any instructor go through an aircraft logbook with me. Now that I am instructing I feel that this is something that should be taught. Thus, I’m going to get one of the aircrafts logbooks and go over it with my students. However, I am looking for some info on what to look for and where to find the important sign offs. I basically want to point out where the AV1ATE is so they know where to look or anything else that might be important.

February 21st, 2005, 21:21	#2
USMCmech Old Skool Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas TX Posts: 1,647	Re: Aircraft Logbooks I'm swamped at work at the moment (as I chew my lunch and type), but I'll try to do a good in depth post on this later.

February 21st, 2005, 22:14	#3
Grabo172 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Peterborough, NH Posts: 1,281	Re: Aircraft Logbooks Wow, NEVER! Very strange, all of my checkrides basically either started or ended by proving that the plane we're about to fly is legal, ie showing all the appropriate signoffs in the log book. But, we all don't have the same examiners. You are looking for quite a few things, You need the annual inspection sign off in all the log books (airframe, powerpalnt, and propeller. Some logs have avionics too). You need to have the most recent 100 hr inspection (if the plane is operated for hire). The 24 month inpections of the Pitot/Static system, and the ELT. Need also, the ELT battery time. Then the IFR items, such as the VOR 30 day checks. Also you have to be able to prove all AD's are complied with, the logs I usually have seem have an AD section in them, but the signatures might be strewn throughout the other logs. USMCMech, what am I forgetting? Hope this helps!

February 22nd, 2005, 00:59	#4
USMCmech Old Skool Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas TX Posts: 1,647	Re: Aircraft Logbooks I never really looked at one till I was working on my CFI, and that was only a cursory glance. They never came up in any checkride. I've since learned a good deal about aircraft maintence (most of it not at any school). A maintence logbook is simply a chronological record of all the maintence and inspections performed on a airplane. It can be as simple as a spiral notebook, or as complex as the monsters carried on the airliners. Many airplanes have seperate logbooks for the engine, propeler & avionics. This way the logbook for the engine can be transfered with the engine if it is ever sold. This also keeps the master A/C log from getting too complex. 99% of the time you will only care about the A/C log. It is the master that will stay with the plane from the date it is built till it is scraped. Anytime you are flying a plane you have the right to see the logbooks for that plane. Most of the time if you ask to see them, the owner won't let you take them out of his sight. This isn't usually an issue with the maintence, but they are worried about you loosing the book. A plane with lost logbooks looses about 20% of it's value. Anytime a FBO refuses to let you see the maintence logs, take your buisness elsewhere. As the pilot you are responsible for making sure your airplane is in an airworthy cndition. You aren't expected to be a expert, but read the planes history to see if there is anything recent that you need to be aware of. Many times a problem will occur due to recent maintence. For example I would be very concerned about flying a newly installed engine over water, but if it's been running fine for 1000 hrs I wouldn't worry as much. The things you as a pilot need to look for are: The last annual and/or 100hr inspection. Pitot/static check in the past 24 months (useually a part of the annual) Transponder check in the last 24 months (also usually a part of the annual) ELT battery check/replacement. ADs should be complied with as part of the annual/100hr. Most of the time VOR 30 day checks are kept seperate from the logbook, since they are done so frequently. Most owners I have seen keep a small notepad in the cockpit for this. As a practical matter this is all you will be expected to be familiar with as a pilot. Pilots and owners can performe "preventative maintence" which is defined in FAR 43, apendix A, para c (it's a long list that will surprise you). If you chage a tire as allowed under preventative maint. You will have to make a logbook entry that includes the date, A/C time, a description of the work performed, your name, and certificate type and number. Example: 2/21/05 3498 TTAF Removed wheel and tire. Installed new Goodyear tire per maufactuers instructions. Reinstalled wheel per Cessna service maunal 12-54-B. Performed taxi and brake checks. Scott Beadle PPL# 1234567

February 22nd, 2005, 07:21	#5
Grabo172 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Peterborough, NH Posts: 1,281	Re: Aircraft Logbooks [ QUOTE ] USMCMech, what am I forgetting? [/ QUOTE ] TRANSPONDER CHECKS You da man!

February 22nd, 2005, 13:35	#6
FOD Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 213	Re: Aircraft Logbooks Ok, so theres an airframe, powerplant, propeller, and possibly an avionics logbook Annual- found in all logbooks VOR- i know where to find that 100hour- found where? Pitot Static System- found where? Transponder- assuming avionics logbook if it has one, where would it be if i didnt ELT- found where?

February 22nd, 2005, 13:53	#7
USMCmech Old Skool Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas TX Posts: 1,647	Re: Aircraft Logbooks [ QUOTE ] Annual- found in all logbooks VOR- i know where to find that 100hour- found where? Pitot Static System- found where? Transponder- assuming avionics logbook if it has one, where would it be if i didnt ELT- found where? [/ QUOTE ] I haven't seen many Avionics logbooks, but they are out there. Otherwise all this should be in the main A/C logbook. The 100 hr is identical to an annual, except that it can not superseed the annual. Pitot/static, ELT, & transponder checks are useually done as part of the annual. However they need seperate entries apart from the annual sign off.

February 22nd, 2005, 17:37	#8
GregCollins2 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Hendersonville, NC Posts: 284	Re: Aircraft Logbooks Just a couple notes - Pitot static and transponder may be lumped together in one entry in the airframe log. The ELT is part of just about every 100 hour/Annual checklist and may not show up in a separate entry, depending on the mechanic. The annual and 100 hour entries are only required in the Airframe Logbook, although most mechanics will make entries in every logbook.

February 22nd, 2005, 18:01	#9
JayAre Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Multiple Posts: 1,022	Re: Aircraft Logbooks Every Checkride had to have them. Pretty much learned by hanging around A&P's

February 24th, 2005, 21:02	#10
ryanmickG Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arlington TX Posts: 1,935	Re: Aircraft Logbooks Checkrides are not required to have 100 hour inspections.Checkride are not flight instruction nor are they a commercial operation.

February 25th, 2005, 09:48	#11
Pooch Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Venice, FL Posts: 183	Re: Aircraft Logbooks [ QUOTE ] Checkrides are not required to have 100 hour inspections.Checkride are not flight instruction nor are they a commercial operation. [/ QUOTE ] Unless, of course, the aircraft is rented for the checkride (for hire). Also, just to add a little info to what was said earlier, some mechanics make a notation when they do annual/100-hr inspections that all AD's have been complied with at that time. This would save time if you were required to show that the aircraft were airworthy (for example, on a checkride, as I had to find out the hard way).

February 25th, 2005, 19:59	#12
GregCollins2 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Hendersonville, NC Posts: 284	Re: Aircraft Logbooks One other note, when a mechanic or IA signs off on an annual or 100 hour inspection, the inspection is only good for all previous work up to the time the signature is placed in the log book. In other words, the second the Annual is complete and the aircraft rolls out the hangar door, it could be unairworthy again. Non-emergency type AD's are issued every two weeks and it is the responsibility of the owner/operator to ensure compliance. Almost all non-emergency AD's allow for the aircraft to be operated until the next Annual/100 Hour/Hourly Limit, but emergency AD's can ground the airplane immediately.

February 25th, 2005, 22:14	#13
FlyboyZR1 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: MN Posts: 97	Re: Aircraft Logbooks [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Checkrides are not required to have 100 hour inspections.Checkride are not flight instruction nor are they a commercial operation. [/ QUOTE ] Unless, of course, the aircraft is rented for the checkride (for hire) [/ QUOTE ] Even if you rent an airplane for the checkride it doesn't need a 100hr. The only time a 100-hour is required is when carrying passengers for hire or flight instruction for hire. Taking a checkride is not for hire. 91.409 (b)

February 25th, 2005, 22:22	#14
ryanmickG Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arlington TX Posts: 1,935	Re: Aircraft Logbooks

February 25th, 2005, 22:38	#15
SteveC Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,643	Re: Aircraft Logbooks Guys.......go back and read the thread again. JayAre's not saying that you need a 100 hour for checkrides, he's saying that you need to be able to review the logbooks for airworthiness, AD's, etc., at every checkride. ryanmickG misunderstands that statement and then everybody's off to the races, only it's the wrong race track...... [/mixing metaphors]

February 25th, 2005, 23:40	#16
ryanmickG Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arlington TX Posts: 1,935	Re: Aircraft Logbooks Sorry steveC for getting off track, but Ive been a CFI for 2 years and have alot of signoffs and never once did the examiner ask to see any ADs on the airplanes. Not to give the impression that you shouldnt teach your student how to find them.

February 27th, 2005, 01:15	#17
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,568	Re: Aircraft Logbooks [ QUOTE ] . . . but Ive been a CFI for 2 years and have alot of signoffs and never once did the examiner ask to see any ADs on the airplanes. [/ QUOTE ] I was required to show them on my Instrument, Commercial and CFI-I (initial) checkrides.

March 2nd, 2005, 16:51	#18
dgRoot Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Above Colorado Posts: 90	Re: Aircraft Logbooks I was also required to show them for my commercial and CFI. Luckily, I work as a dispatcher for the school so I'm very familiar with the log books.

March 2nd, 2005, 23:48	#19
Lima_Charlie Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 563	Re: Aircraft Logbooks One other thing to mention... Make sure you know what kind of inspection program the airplane is on. Annual and 100hr have been mentioned, but a progressive schedule is also possible. All of our a/c are on a 50 hour, 4 event progressive schedule. 4 events equal 1 cycle. 1 cycle equals the annual. A progressive schedule is typically custom made to the for school. For some reason, we chose a 4 event schedule, but it could just as easily been a 5 or 3 event schedule.

March 3rd, 2005, 10:27	#20
Pooch Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Venice, FL Posts: 183	Re: Aircraft Logbooks [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Checkrides are not required to have 100 hour inspections.Checkride are not flight instruction nor are they a commercial operation. [/ QUOTE ] Unless, of course, the aircraft is rented for the checkride (for hire) [/ QUOTE ] Even if you rent an airplane for the checkride it doesn't need a 100hr. The only time a 100-hour is required is when carrying passengers for hire or flight instruction for hire. Taking a checkride is not for hire. 91.409 (b) [/ QUOTE ] FlyboyZR1... You are right, I was wrong. I misunderstood the FAR, and I'm going to lower my head in shame for a minute or two and then study the FAR/AIM for a couple of hours to make up for it.

March 4th, 2005, 20:19	#21
FlyboyZR1 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: MN Posts: 97	Re: Aircraft Logbooks Don't worry about it Pooch the 100hr is one of those things that people aren't 100% sure about, and I think the "for hire" stuff can make it confusing.

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