What I learned about Icing today...

[dingo222]

I had an eye opener today, so I thought I'd share it with the other CFI's out here. Here is the scenario: Another instructor says "hey man", I'm going out tonight, cant fly with my instr. student at 7 am tomorrow, can you go with him yada yada yada. No prob, so we set out on an IFR x-cntry in solid IMC. Cloud bases at 2, tops at 10, so we are in the soup the whole trip with freezing lvl reported at 9 to 10. I'm tired, and doing the usual, with eyes on the AI and DG, with some advice like "keep it standard rate, "Socal Appr has called twice, do you plan to answer etc?" About 30 min into it at 7,000, I look out the window and see almost an inch of sheet ice on the lead edge and creeping over the wing.

Strike 1: I was complacent.

I ask for higher and cant get it, but we get cleared down to 6, and can't hold it even with full power.

Strike 2: I didn't make the controller realize how dire the situation was getting.

We get cleared for a 180 and down to 4, and the student pulls the power for descent. The stall happened somewhere around 90 kts indicated. Strike 3: FUBAR

I recovered and made it down to 4 where the ice finally started to flake off.

Lessons learned. Stay alert. I got complacent with the "i've done this 1000 times" mindset.
Teach your students to do the exact same as you would. This students instructor never taught him what to do in icing conditions, about load factors and higher stall speeds etc. Explain, demonstrate, supervise, evaluate.

I've been instructing for quite a while now, and cant believe how
lazy I have become. Stay alert, stay alive is my new motto. Accidents usually happen becuase of a chain of mistakes. Thank god I was able to break the chain today. Pass it on to the students and younger CFI's out there. Complacency kills, and hopefully i can teach others through my mistakes!

[MikeD]

Live and learn, my friend. Live and learn.

Put this one in your IFR bag-of-tricks.

There are those that have, and those that will..............

I can't count the number of screwups I've done in my career that should've done me in had they gone on.

[LFC]

Icing seems to be a very frequent problem with IMC. I am about to start my instrument and will definately be sure to read the icing section a couple extra times. Glad it worked out in the end, I would have hated to see a GA accident on the news tonight.

[mtsu_av8er]

Thanks for sharing that, Dingo. As CFI's, weneed to learn our mistakes and sharethem with one another, instead of pretending that these things don't happen and that we're perfect.

[N8389P]

That stuff is no fun. Cant wait till this summer. Got my IR a few months ago and had some bad experiences with that stuff. But 250 ponys help alot more then 160 or how many ever is in the 172.

[E_Dawg]

[ QUOTE ]
That stuff is no fun. Cant wait till this summer. Got my IR a few months ago and had some bad experiences with that stuff. But 250 ponys help alot more then 160 or how many ever is in the 172.

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That's a great way to look at it

[N8389P]

If they say Airmet for Ice. That means Im not going.

[EatSleepFly]

[ QUOTE ]
If they say Airmet for Ice. That means Im not going.

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You wouldn't fly much around here then.

Just because there's an Airmet out doesn't mean you're going to turn into a Cessna-shaped popcicle.

[N8389P]

HAHA [ QUOTE ]
Cessna-shaped popcicle

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that one. Thank God I dont live in the northeast or anywhere in the north Texas sounds fun MEAs of 3000ft, That would be the best

[Swen]

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If they say Airmet for Ice. That means Im not going.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cripes!
It would take me ten years to get through school and get all my ratings done if I did that. But to an extent, it is good to be safe.

[GaTechKid]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If they say Airmet for Ice. That means Im not going.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't fly much around here then.

Just because there's an Airmet out doesn't mean you're going to turn into a Cessna-shaped popcicle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't an airmet for icing constitute known icing conditions?

[Grabo172]

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If they say Airmet for Ice. That means Im not going.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't fly much around here then.

Just because there's an Airmet out doesn't mean you're going to turn into a Cessna-shaped popcicle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't an airmet for icing constitute known icing conditions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only in visable moisture. So if there is an airmet for ice at the freezing level of say 2000' and there aren't any clouds till 8000' and no rain/snow/sleet then go have a blast!. The Plane LOVES the cold (of course after the oil is warmed up).

[TaterSalad]

The way I read the regs, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong (I'll explain why I may be wrong in a second), 91.527(b)(1) Except for a plane w/icing protection no pilot may fly: "Under IFR into known or forecast moderate icing conditions". So an airmet for icing, does not constitute a no-go condition, unless it's an airmet or forecast for moderate icing.

The reason I say I may be reading it wrong, is 91.527 is under Subpart F, Large and Turbine Powered Multiengine Airplanes. However, this is the only place in the regs I can find anything about operating in icing conditions, and 91.527 reads as if it applies to any aircraft. Any takers on this discussion?

And I forgot to mention, to the above post about an airmet not constituting icing conditions.............it doesn't constitute known icing conditions, however it does satisfy the requirement of forecast icing conditions, so be careful just assuming that if you're not in visible moisture, but within an icing airmet, that you're legal.

[EatSleepFly]

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However, this is the only place in the regs I can find anything about operating in icing conditions

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It falls under 91.9:
----------------------------------------------
§ 91.9 Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.
----------------------------------------------

The limitations section of the AFM will state whether the aircraft is certified for known icing or not.


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and 91.527 reads as if it applies to any aircraft

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That whole sections is like that, and it does apply to any aircraft......that is "Large or Turbine Powered."
Refer to 91.501- "Applicability."

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it doesn't constitute known icing conditions, however it does satisfy the requirement of forecast icing conditions, so be careful just assuming that if you're not in visible moisture, but within an icing airmet, that you're legal.

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You have to take into account your route and alititude to determine whether there is known or forecast ice. There can be PIREPS and Airmet Z's and forecasts for ice up the wazoo above 10,000, but if you're doing the flight at 4,000 they don't apply to you. That's what I was getting at in my post above.

[GaTechKid]

I asked my question because, after the last huge thread about known icing conditions, I remembered reading this selection
[ QUOTE ]
In 1993, the board considered the appeal of another airman who flew into an area covered by a SIGMET for occasional moderate to severe icing along his route from Marquette, Mich., to Milwaukee, Wis. The airplane crashed just short of the runway. The pilot argued that he was entitled to rely upon PIREP information indicating that there was "no icing at the altitude and along the route he planned." The board, however, disagreed: "It is not within the respondent's discretion to pick and choose between the SIGMET and anecdotal PIREPS." Furthermore, it said, "the icing threat need not be blanketing the entire area at every altitude for it to be either known or dangerous, nor does the lack of extensive PIREPs at [the pilot's] planned altitude and along the planned route legitimize his action."\5 Thus, the board made it clear that the main value of a PIREP — at least where icing is concerned — is to provide pilots of aircraft that are already fully equipped for icing conditions with information that might be useful in strategic flight planning. They do not give pilots an excuse to venture into those conditions in unequipped, or even partially-equipped, airplanes.


[/ QUOTE ]
from this link. If you read the entire article it shows a dichotomy between the FAA and NTSB interpretations of known icing conditions.

[bike21]

Great article! As a CFI, I teach to err on the side of caution. AIRMETs for ice = no-go in most GA airplanes. Especially in Colorado! If its IMC out here, it seems to either be icing or thunderstorms keeping us on the ground.

Good job not getting dead and recovering the a/c. Make sure to watch for tail-plane stalls! If your wing has ice, it is VERY likely your horizontal stabilizer has aleady iced over! Smaller surfaces accrete ice much faster.

Sad story out of Colorado today, a Citation crashed down at Pueblo. There were a few reports of moderate mixed at the time. But who knows, nothing worse but to speculate.

[dingo222]

New expericence to add to the CFI lesson's learned file..............

Today I did an insurance checkout for a renter for an FO for a regional. He was an ATP rated pilot, current CFI, and former CFI at my school. Checkout all went as planned.... perfect. HE was perfect on just about everything. I pulled the power to idle to simulate an engine out and he pitched for the wrong airspeed, but corrected it as soon as he backed up his procedures with the checklist. He's a good pilot and did as he should have and he corrected his mistake. We get back, I plug him to walk in my resume (who wouldn't :-) ) and he departed with his other ATP and current CFI regional buddy for a 4 hr flight for a wedding. 6 hrs later the school gets the call. The a/c went down on a golf course and is destroyed, but the occupants walked.

After lots of lying and protecting the ego, we finally got the answer to the crash. FUEL EXHAUSTION.


I learned three lessons here:

1) I'm glad I re-emphasized best glide speed to him, even though he had more than double my hours. He went to best glide and both of them walked from the site.

2) Don't get complacent regardless of your experience. As a 12 yr ARMY NCO, and a three time combat vet, I know that complacency kills. As i used to tell my soldiers, C3, and stay alert, stay alive!!!!

3) Just because some of us are CFI's, doesn't make us lowly or less knowledgeable. We are less experienced; but that does not make us less knowledgeable. We live; we learn; we live.

Every day that I tell myself that I hate my job, or that I should have done PFT, something like this comes up and reminds me that being a CFI is what provides me the education and experience to be a true professional aviation student and future captain somwhere out there!

easy, cheesy, greasy, and sleazy!

Graves,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, out!!!!

[KevinT]

[ QUOTE ]
I had an eye opener today, so I thought I'd share it with the other CFI's out here. Here is the scenario: Another instructor says "hey man", I'm going out tonight, cant fly with my instr. student at 7 am tomorrow, can you go with him yada yada yada. No prob, so we set out on an IFR x-cntry in solid IMC. Cloud bases at 2, tops at 10, so we are in the soup the whole trip with freezing lvl reported at 9 to 10. I'm tired, and doing the usual, with eyes on the AI and DG, with some advice like "keep it standard rate, "Socal Appr has called twice, do you plan to answer etc?" About 30 min into it at 7,000, I look out the window and see almost an inch of sheet ice on the lead edge and creeping over the wing.

Strike 1: I was complacent.

I ask for higher and cant get it, but we get cleared down to 6, and can't hold it even with full power.

Strike 2: I didn't make the controller realize how dire the situation was getting.

We get cleared for a 180 and down to 4, and the student pulls the power for descent. The stall happened somewhere around 90 kts indicated. Strike 3: FUBAR

I recovered and made it down to 4 where the ice finally started to flake off.

Lessons learned. Stay alert. I got complacent with the "i've done this 1000 times" mindset.
Teach your students to do the exact same as you would. This students instructor never taught him what to do in icing conditions, about load factors and higher stall speeds etc. Explain, demonstrate, supervise, evaluate.

I've been instructing for quite a while now, and cant believe how
lazy I have become. Stay alert, stay alive is my new motto. Accidents usually happen becuase of a chain of mistakes. Thank god I was able to break the chain today. Pass it on to the students and younger CFI's out there. Complacency kills, and hopefully i can teach others through my mistakes!

[/ QUOTE ]



why did you ask for a higher altitude when your at 7 with ice already and the freezing level is 9-10? thanks. or anyone that knows the answer feel free to chime in

[jrh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...About 30 min into it at 7,000, I look out the window and see almost an inch of sheet ice on the lead edge and creeping over the wing.

Strike 1: I was complacent.

I ask for higher and cant get it, but we get cleared down to 6, and can't hold it even with full power.


[/ QUOTE ]
why did you ask for a higher altitude when your at 7 with ice already and the freezing level is 9-10? thanks. or anyone that knows the answer feel free to chime in

[/ QUOTE ]

I must admit that I don't have any serious experience with ice, but my understanding is this:

Ice generally occurs in layers a few thousand feet thick. Either climbing or decending usually gets you out of it. Down lower it's warm enough to keep ice from freezing and up higher it's cold enough that the clouds are already frozen, so it doesn't stick to your wings.

However, going higher is generally better than going lower because you're giving yourself more room if it keeps accumulating. If you descend and can't get out of it, now you're down at the MEAs with a load of ice, so you don't have the performance to climb, and don't have the terrain clearance to descend. If you had climbed to begin with, but it kept accumulating, at least you'd have more time to turn around and more time to descend. Also, remember that the forecasts are just best estimates....obviously they got unforecast ice, so they couldn't really trust the forecast anymore.

I'm sure the freight pilots like EatSleepFly could give you a more experienced voice on this. How close did my answer get?

[KevinT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...About 30 min into it at 7,000, I look out the window and see almost an inch of sheet ice on the lead edge and creeping over the wing.

Strike 1: I was complacent.

I ask for higher and cant get it, but we get cleared down to 6, and can't hold it even with full power.


[/ QUOTE ]
why did you ask for a higher altitude when your at 7 with ice already and the freezing level is 9-10? thanks. or anyone that knows the answer feel free to chime in

[/ QUOTE ]

I must admit that I don't have any serious experience with ice, but my understanding is this:

Ice generally occurs in layers a few thousand feet thick. Either climbing or decending usually gets you out of it. Down lower it's warm enough to keep ice from freezing and up higher it's cold enough that the clouds are already frozen, so it doesn't stick to your wings.

However, going higher is generally better than going lower because you're giving yourself more room if it keeps accumulating. If you descend and can't get out of it, now you're down at the MEAs with a load of ice, so you don't have the performance to climb, and don't have the terrain clearance to descend. If you had climbed to begin with, but it kept accumulating, at least you'd have more time to turn around and more time to descend. Also, remember that the forecasts are just best estimates....obviously they got unforecast ice, so they couldn't really trust the forecast anymore.

I'm sure the freight pilots like EatSleepFly could give you a more experienced voice on this. How close did my answer get?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah I am confused because I thought the best choice would be to get rid of the ice. second best would be to stop it from forming further. but I understand the more altitude the better in a situation like this. anyone have any experienced answers?

[TaterSalad]

To answer the questions above...................I would imagine he asked for higher, because the cloud tops were reported as 10k'. Get out of the clouds, ice stops accumulating. Remember, it takes visible moisture to get ice. According to his post, the freezing level was reported at 9k-10k, however at 7k' he was getting ice. He also said the cloud layer was 2k'-10k' (I believe). So, the freezing level is already lower than predicted, who knows how much lower it actually is? And with visible moisture all the way down to 2k', potentially you could be in icing conditions down to a level very close to the earth, with very few options at that point. Make sense?

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
To answer the questions above...................I would imagine he asked for higher, because the cloud tops were reported as 10k'. Get out of the clouds, ice stops accumulating. Remember, it takes visible moisture to get ice. According to his post, the freezing level was reported at 9k-10k, however at 7k' he was getting ice. He also said the cloud layer was 2k'-10k' (I believe). So, the freezing level is already lower than predicted, who knows how much lower it actually is? And with visible moisture all the way down to 2k', potentially you could be in icing conditions down to a level very close to the earth, with very few options at that point. Make sense?

[/ QUOTE ]


To add....if you're picking up ice, you'll generally have freezing rain/freezing drizzle below.

[dingo222]

the clouds were topped out at 10, and I could see the sun poking through. I may have been able to get out of them by 9k or so.

THe second reason was that I wasn't sure where the ice started, so even as I went back down, i was still picking up ice. My goal was to get out of it, up or down. Up was just easier to get to at that point.

The goal was to get out of the visible moisture and into the sun to hear that great sound of ice flaking off and hitting the airplane!

[EatSleepFly]

[ QUOTE ]
I must admit that I don't have any serious experience with ice, but my understanding is this:

Ice generally occurs in layers a few thousand feet thick. Either climbing or decending usually gets you out of it. Down lower it's warm enough to keep ice from freezing and up higher it's cold enough that the clouds are already frozen, so it doesn't stick to your wings.

However, going higher is generally better than going lower because you're giving yourself more room if it keeps accumulating. If you descend and can't get out of it, now you're down at the MEAs with a load of ice, so you don't have the performance to climb, and don't have the terrain clearance to descend. If you had climbed to begin with, but it kept accumulating, at least you'd have more time to turn around and more time to descend. Also, remember that the forecasts are just best estimates....obviously they got unforecast ice, so they couldn't really trust the forecast anymore.

I'm sure the freight pilots like EatSleepFly could give you a more experienced voice on this. How close did my answer get?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good to me. Except I wouldn't say that going lower will necessarily be warm enough to keep you out of ice. This time of year, sure, but not in the winter. You'll get ice on the ground in the winter. It's almost always better to climb as high as you can, basically for all the reasons you said. Plus, in the Caravan, it doesn't shed ice all that great unless you're doing above 160 kts., which if you have ice can only be done in a descent, really. So going high gives you the opportunity to blow it off good once or twice as you're descending. Although, latest "procedure" for the 'Van is to blow the boots once they have any accumulation of ice. Not sure how much I agree with that, but whoever came up with that has more experience than me, I'm sure.

Icing is difficult to predict/forecast. I've gotten none where I thought I'd get loaded, and I've turned into a popsicle where I didn't think it'd be so bad.

Here's to hoping I will be out of the 'Van and hauling boxes in something else before icing season gets into full swing.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by dingo222

the clouds were topped out at 10, and I could see the sun poking through. I may have been able to get out of them by 9k or so.

You'll see soon enough how misleading this can be. I have felt the same way, "just another 1000 ft should do it." Then, 20,000 ft later.... "are we ever going to get above this?"

Up was just easier to get to at that point.

Word of caution: Ice usually build faster near the tops.

1) +10 deg C or below:Be careful and stay out of the clouds.
2) Ice not only disrupts airflow, it adds weight.