Can an instructor self signoff?

Snow · January 26th, 2005, 09:57

I have run across a case where an instructor had 'trained' himself in SIPO (sim instructor panel operation) and administered himself a test, which he had writen. Having passed the test he signed himself off as being qualified.

Now of couse this seems rather silly, but I am looking for a regulation that specificaly says that this is not allowed, if anyone could give me some references on this, it would be most helpful. Much thanks.

CaliforniaSurfer · January 26th, 2005, 10:53

61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications

61.195(i)
A flight instructor shall not make any self-endorsement for a certificate, rating, flight review, authorization, operating privilege, practical test, or knowledge test that is required by this part.

Snow · January 26th, 2005, 14:26

ok thanks that was very helpful!

mtsu_av8er · January 26th, 2005, 20:25

[ QUOTE ]
61.195(i)
A flight instructor shall not make any self-endorsement for a certificate, rating, flight review, authorization, operating privilege, practical test, or knowledge test that is required by this part.

[/ QUOTE ]

What that instructor did was perfectly OK in the eyes of the FAA.

Doesn't make it right, though. . .

Snow · January 31st, 2005, 18:40

Yeah I know, but I think there is another reference to it in 7500 or 7800, I couldn't find it though. *shrugs*

MidlifeFlyer · January 31st, 2005, 19:53

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't make it right, though. . .

[/ QUOTE ]Well, the going through the "endorsement" process is a bit silly, but I don't really see anything "wrong" with the idea of telling people you're qualified to do something without some grand poo-bah also saying it. People do it all the time both in and out of aviation..

mtsu_av8er · February 1st, 2005, 10:52

[ QUOTE ]
. . . I don't really see anything "wrong" with the idea of telling people you're qualified to do something without some grand poo-bah also saying it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But....but.....the Grand Poo-Bah is all powerful. ..

B757plt2B · February 14th, 2005, 21:32

While we're on this topic, I have a question regarding the logging of sim time as an authorized instructor. Let's say I were an "authorized" instructor in a Frasca 141. Would I be allowed to log solo sim time if the time were not going towards any requirements for a certificate or rating--i.e. I wanted to add a couple of hours onto my total time--? I've looked in the regs and came across the same reg mentioned above, but would it still be legal?
Thanks in advance for any help.

EatSleepFly · February 14th, 2005, 22:03

No. Also, sim time doesn't count toward total time.

ananoman · February 14th, 2005, 23:12

[ QUOTE ]
I have run across a case where an instructor had 'trained' himself in SIPO (sim instructor panel operation) and administered himself a test, which he had writen. Having passed the test he signed himself off as being qualified.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are certain circumstances where something along these lines may be unavoidable. If you start a new training program with a new simulator, someone has to develop a program to train the instructors who will be hired to run the thing. If there is no established training program or qualified 'trainers', then someone will have to develop a training program to qualify everyone else in the program. Usually getting qualified involves some sort of documented process and ends in a test that proves everyone knows what they are doing. If you develop the training program and write the test, then you are really the only one who can say you are qualified in the operation of your new sim. This is not to say that the FAA will not be involved, as they will probably approve your program and will observe your operations, but they will probably have no idea how to operate your equipment.

I would imagine if you started a 141 Flight School, you would encounter a similar problem. Anyone here who has worked at a 141 school had to undergo some sort of 'standardization'. Who standardized the first instructor when the school was first opened? I would guess that the Chief Instructor would sign themselves off as having 'completed standardization' and would then go on to train rest of the new employees.

ananoman · February 14th, 2005, 23:20

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say I were an "authorized" instructor in a Frasca 141. Would I be allowed to log solo sim time if the time were not going towards any requirements for a certificate or rating--i.e. I wanted to add a couple of hours onto my total time--?

[/ QUOTE ] Even if this did count for total time, which it doesn't, who would be impressed with a log book filled with 'solo Frasca time'. Even if you could do this, it would do you no good.

It might help you pass a skills test that is often administered with your interview at a regional, so it would not be a waste of time, but no one will care how much Frasca you have when you go to an interview.

B757plt2B · February 15th, 2005, 10:01

Oh man, so you mean to tell me my 500 hours of Frasca time aren't worth anything?? Just kidding, of course. Thanks for the posts. I have not actually done that myself, but it has been brought up often at the place where I instruct and I was confident that someone on here would have a definitive answer.
Also, if sim time does not count towards one's total time, how is it that up to 50 hours in a sim/ftd can go towards the 250 hrs of total time needed for a Commercial certificate??

GaTechKid · February 15th, 2005, 14:03

[ QUOTE ]
Oh man, so you mean to tell me my 500 hours of Frasca time aren't worth anything?? Just kidding, of course. Thanks for the posts. I have not actually done that myself, but it has been brought up often at the place where I instruct and I was confident that someone on here would have a definitive answer.
Also, if sim time does not count towards one's total time, how is it that up to 50 hours in a sim/ftd can go towards the 250 hrs of total time needed for a Commercial certificate??

[/ QUOTE ]

61.129(i)

SUSPilot · February 15th, 2005, 23:24

[ QUOTE ]
I would imagine if you started a 141 Flight School, you would encounter a similar problem. Anyone here who has worked at a 141 school had to undergo some sort of 'standardization'. Who standardized the first instructor when the school was first opened? I would guess that the Chief Instructor would sign themselves off as having 'completed standardization' and would then go on to train rest of the new employees.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, the POI for the school will administer a Part 141 Chief Flight Instructor or Assitant Chief flight instructor Checkride to anyone at the flight school with that designation. Once they pass the checkride they are considered standardized and can standardize any instructor that will be teaching the curriculum.

MidlifeFlyer · February 16th, 2005, 08:17

[ QUOTE ]

Also, if sim time does not count towards one's total time, how is it that up to 50 hours in a sim/ftd can go towards the 250 hrs of total time needed for a Commercial certificate??

[/ QUOTE ]Because there's a special rule that says so.

And, going back to your earlier post, what do no mean by "solo" time anyway?

There is no rule I know of that allows anyone to log any type of "flight" time in a sim or FTD, let alone "solo" time, and nothing I know of that lets anyone log anything from a sim or FTD flight that doesn't involve an instructor (=another= instructor)

January 26th, 2005, 09:57	#1
Snow Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 870	Can an instructor self signoff? I have run across a case where an instructor had 'trained' himself in SIPO (sim instructor panel operation) and administered himself a test, which he had writen. Having passed the test he signed himself off as being qualified. Now of couse this seems rather silly, but I am looking for a regulation that specificaly says that this is not allowed, if anyone could give me some references on this, it would be most helpful. Much thanks.

January 26th, 2005, 10:53	#2
CaliforniaSurfer Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: SoCal Posts: 296	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? 61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications 61.195(i) A flight instructor shall not make any self-endorsement for a certificate, rating, flight review, authorization, operating privilege, practical test, or knowledge test that is required by this part.

January 26th, 2005, 14:26	#3
Snow Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 870	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? ok thanks that was very helpful!

January 26th, 2005, 20:25	#4
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,564	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? [ QUOTE ] 61.195(i) A flight instructor shall not make any self-endorsement for a certificate, rating, flight review, authorization, operating privilege, practical test, or knowledge test that is required by this part. [/ QUOTE ] What that instructor did was perfectly OK in the eyes of the FAA. Doesn't make it right, though. . .

January 31st, 2005, 18:40	#5
Snow Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 870	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? Yeah I know, but I think there is another reference to it in 7500 or 7800, I couldn't find it though. shrugs

January 31st, 2005, 19:53	#6
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 3,022	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? [ QUOTE ] Doesn't make it right, though. . . [/ QUOTE ]Well, the going through the "endorsement" process is a bit silly, but I don't really see anything "wrong" with the idea of telling people you're qualified to do something without some grand poo-bah also saying it. People do it all the time both in and out of aviation..

February 1st, 2005, 10:52	#7
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,564	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? [ QUOTE ] . . . I don't really see anything "wrong" with the idea of telling people you're qualified to do something without some grand poo-bah also saying it. [/ QUOTE ] But....but.....the Grand Poo-Bah is all powerful. ..

February 14th, 2005, 21:32	#8
B757plt2B Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Indiana Posts: 80	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? While we're on this topic, I have a question regarding the logging of sim time as an authorized instructor. Let's say I were an "authorized" instructor in a Frasca 141. Would I be allowed to log solo sim time if the time were not going towards any requirements for a certificate or rating--i.e. I wanted to add a couple of hours onto my total time--? I've looked in the regs and came across the same reg mentioned above, but would it still be legal? Thanks in advance for any help.

February 14th, 2005, 22:03	#9
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? No. Also, sim time doesn't count toward total time.

February 14th, 2005, 23:12	#10
ananoman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 916	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? [ QUOTE ] I have run across a case where an instructor had 'trained' himself in SIPO (sim instructor panel operation) and administered himself a test, which he had writen. Having passed the test he signed himself off as being qualified. [/ QUOTE ] There are certain circumstances where something along these lines may be unavoidable. If you start a new training program with a new simulator, someone has to develop a program to train the instructors who will be hired to run the thing. If there is no established training program or qualified 'trainers', then someone will have to develop a training program to qualify everyone else in the program. Usually getting qualified involves some sort of documented process and ends in a test that proves everyone knows what they are doing. If you develop the training program and write the test, then you are really the only one who can say you are qualified in the operation of your new sim. This is not to say that the FAA will not be involved, as they will probably approve your program and will observe your operations, but they will probably have no idea how to operate your equipment. I would imagine if you started a 141 Flight School, you would encounter a similar problem. Anyone here who has worked at a 141 school had to undergo some sort of 'standardization'. Who standardized the first instructor when the school was first opened? I would guess that the Chief Instructor would sign themselves off as having 'completed standardization' and would then go on to train rest of the new employees.

February 14th, 2005, 23:20	#11
ananoman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 916	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? [ QUOTE ] Let's say I were an "authorized" instructor in a Frasca 141. Would I be allowed to log solo sim time if the time were not going towards any requirements for a certificate or rating--i.e. I wanted to add a couple of hours onto my total time--? [/ QUOTE ] Even if this did count for total time, which it doesn't, who would be impressed with a log book filled with 'solo Frasca time'. Even if you could do this, it would do you no good. It might help you pass a skills test that is often administered with your interview at a regional, so it would not be a waste of time, but no one will care how much Frasca you have when you go to an interview.

February 15th, 2005, 10:01	#12
B757plt2B Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Indiana Posts: 80	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? Oh man, so you mean to tell me my 500 hours of Frasca time aren't worth anything?? Just kidding, of course. Thanks for the posts. I have not actually done that myself, but it has been brought up often at the place where I instruct and I was confident that someone on here would have a definitive answer. Also, if sim time does not count towards one's total time, how is it that up to 50 hours in a sim/ftd can go towards the 250 hrs of total time needed for a Commercial certificate??

February 15th, 2005, 14:03	#13
GaTechKid Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Frigid NWA Hub Posts: 1,885	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? [ QUOTE ] Oh man, so you mean to tell me my 500 hours of Frasca time aren't worth anything?? Just kidding, of course. Thanks for the posts. I have not actually done that myself, but it has been brought up often at the place where I instruct and I was confident that someone on here would have a definitive answer. Also, if sim time does not count towards one's total time, how is it that up to 50 hours in a sim/ftd can go towards the 250 hrs of total time needed for a Commercial certificate?? [/ QUOTE ] 61.129(i)

February 15th, 2005, 23:24	#14
SUSPilot Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Baseball City, USA Posts: 367	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? [ QUOTE ] I would imagine if you started a 141 Flight School, you would encounter a similar problem. Anyone here who has worked at a 141 school had to undergo some sort of 'standardization'. Who standardized the first instructor when the school was first opened? I would guess that the Chief Instructor would sign themselves off as having 'completed standardization' and would then go on to train rest of the new employees. [/ QUOTE ] In this case, the POI for the school will administer a Part 141 Chief Flight Instructor or Assitant Chief flight instructor Checkride to anyone at the flight school with that designation. Once they pass the checkride they are considered standardized and can standardize any instructor that will be teaching the curriculum.

February 16th, 2005, 08:17	#15
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 3,022	Re: Can an instructor self signoff? [ QUOTE ] Also, if sim time does not count towards one's total time, how is it that up to 50 hours in a sim/ftd can go towards the 250 hrs of total time needed for a Commercial certificate?? [/ QUOTE ]Because there's a special rule that says so. And, going back to your earlier post, what do no mean by "solo" time anyway? There is no rule I know of that allows anyone to log any type of "flight" time in a sim or FTD, let alone "solo" time, and nothing I know of that lets anyone log anything from a sim or FTD flight that doesn't involve an instructor (=another= instructor)

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