lure of the gps

sorrygottarunway · January 26th, 2005, 09:06

one of my early morning (we're talking 6:30am) students is now starting his cross countries in a 152 and has seen the new arrival of a 172SP with weather, traffic avoidance, 1 garmin 530 and on garmin 430. Being a technophile he started salivating! So, being curious about the plane myself, I'm taking him on a lesson in it for tomorrow.. but this is the thing he wants to take on his cross countries... however, my view was that for his first and second cross country, the only technology he should have is his brain, a written flight plan, and a stopwatch.

Am I, as a post-teenage CFI older fasioned than my student? Does the argument of safe technology really apply? I just want my student looking at a map, out the window, seeing how groundspeed is affected by wind. I know that GPS gives an instantaneous view of this- but what if the whole box goes kerplunk?

sorrygottarunway · January 26th, 2005, 09:08

oh.. and he asked me if a portable moving-map would be helpful too. So I grabbed his sectional and shook back and fourth in front of his face "HERE's your moving map!"

BoilerPilot2007 · January 26th, 2005, 09:54

Do your first dual cross countries without any use of the GPS Nav pages.. turn off the 530 if you can. Make sure you're completely comfortable that he can get to and from airports with the use of his moving map. Basically, forget there's a GPS sitting there.

When thats done, explain that the GPS is a navigation AID to his sectional, nav log, etc. Also, show him how to use the Nearest function should he become lost. (After you've taught normal diversions of course).

This way, he'll be able to do it on his own, realizing that the GPS is helpful but not the ONLY way to navigate. Make sure to teach him to program the route into the GPS so he can "follow along" on his solo cross countries.

GPS is a great tool. If you've got one, use one. But respect the fact that they DO fail. This should teach him that technology is a useful tool, but the ability to actually FLY using dead reckoning and pilotage is still primary.

Hope that helps give you an idea of how to integrate GPS training. It's worked well for me here at Purdue.

Cheers,
Evan

lilrkt · January 26th, 2005, 13:33

I see it both ways. In his flying career, he will most likely always have a GPS in the plane. He will have to know how to use it, and use it well. At the same time, he must ifrst become familiar with the pilotage. If something should happen to the GPS or he should find himself in a plane without one, he must still be able to navigate. I would judge this on a student by student basis. If you believe he really has a firm grip on his out-the-window navigation, start him on the GPS. If not, do not let him use it yet. He will have plenty of time down the road.

kellwolf · January 26th, 2005, 15:47

To me, a GPS to a new student seems more like "magic" than navigation. I'd say do the first couple of cross countries the old fashioned way, then add in the GPS. That way your student should understand what the GPS is doing. For example, how does it computer groundspeed? To someone that has never done the computations with an E6-B, it looks like magic.

If he resists, tell him it'll prepare him for later when/if the GPS fails, has RAIM failure, etc. If he still resists, hit him with a clipboard.

sorrygottarunway · January 26th, 2005, 17:55

[ QUOTE ]
If he still resists, hit him with a clipboard.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has already been done. I make it common practice to beat my students.

I need to buy a new one of these every 12 months, or after 1 hour of cumulative use... says so in 91.207

mtsu_av8er · January 26th, 2005, 20:29

There's a guy at my flight school that insists that getting the proper frequency information from his handheld GPS is more efficient that the A/FD.

Not sure how he made it this far. . .

kellwolf · January 26th, 2005, 20:32

You're kidding? First off, his dbase could be expired, second don't you have to scroll through a few menus? Man, I'd rather pull out the A/FD with the nicely darkened tabs and the alphabetically listed airports. Even better, write the freqs down on a piece of paper during pre-flight.....

sorrygottarunway · January 26th, 2005, 20:48

[ QUOTE ]
There's a guy at my flight school that insists that getting the proper frequency information from his handheld GPS is more efficient that the A/FD.

Not sure how he made it this far. . .

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a student that comes in now and then for refresher-instrument training, basically for me to critique his approaches. He used to have this palm-pilot thingy with a huge antenna wire that he would entangle himself in during the approach. Managing the unit on his lap was also quite a challenge. Imagine at the FAF: "oh shoot, where's my stylus.."

After a good helping from my 2-by-4, he's back on track.

Texasspilot · January 27th, 2005, 00:03

I always made all mine do it the old fashioned way. Sure they'll have gps in the future, but you have to make sure that they can do it all on thier own when thier just learning. If he still wants to do it in the 172 say fine...just take out the gps cards. Thats what I did.

kellwolf · January 27th, 2005, 00:06

I'm not saying DON'T teach him the GPS, though. It's a good point that he'll for sure encounter it later on. I think it might even be a requirement for the IR if it's installed in the aircraft.

GatorFC · January 27th, 2005, 01:37

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a demonstration of navigation by pilotage and dead reckoning required on the private checkride?

I've always had a pretty good sense of direction, and I loved doing my private solo x-countries not only because I actually got to go somewhere instead of doing patterns all the time but I also got to test and confirm my basic navigational skills. My instructor at the time mounted his portable Garmin Pilot III on the right side yoke more for his peace of mind than mine. I told him I didn't need it and made a point to not even look at it during my x-countries. I always felt a greater sense of accomplishment being able to navigate the old-fashioned way rather than just by following a line on an lcd.

If worse comes to worse, couldn't you tell your student that the DE is not going to let him use the gps or that he is going to turn it off in the middle of the flight and that he better know where he is or he's going to fail the ride. That should get him in line.

mtsu_av8er · January 27th, 2005, 04:50

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying DON'T teach him the GPS, though. It's a good point that he'll for sure encounter it later on. I think it might even be a requirement for the IR if it's installed in the aircraft.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, yes it is!! Big time. GPS, and autopilot.

My trick is to just turn that crap off during most of the pre-solo training, and it's just the same to most of the students. Now, sometimes when a student just doesn't believe that the wind is affecting our groundspeed during manuevers, it's nice to have a tool to "prove it"...lol.

I treat the GPS as an integral part of the aircraft, and an important tool - at the appropriate time. I tell my students that they'll get to use it - it's just not time yet.

As far as taking out the NAVDATA cards? Hmmmm....it would have to have a placard, would it not?

I just let them know that I'll kick the &^$^ out of them if they use it. . .

Windchill · January 27th, 2005, 16:22

Lloyd has that intimidation factor he can throw at his students ...

LFC · January 28th, 2005, 04:34

GPS is for losers. . .

ADF is the way to go.

GregCollins2 · January 28th, 2005, 07:09

I personally love Pilotage and Ded-reckoning - I own a Champ with no electrical system

.
But....we have several examiners in Georgia that not only require a thorough understanding of the GPS, they expect the prospective pilot to be able to program, activate, and follow, a VFR cross country flight plan if there is a GPS in the aircraft, or the pilot brings a handheld to the flight test. I even know of an examiner in South Carolina that failed a Private candidate for not being able to use the nearest function during a simulated diversion.
I teach my students to use every thing available to them, period. VORs, NDBs, FSS, Loran, GPS, ATC, Pilotage, and Ded-reckoning, and I teach it all from early on in the training. As long as lost procedures and basic common sense navigation skills are practiced regularly, the students won't get lost. In my opinion, I see too many new Private Pilots that fumble around trying to use Navaids, find a FSS or ARTCC frequency, or properly and quickly set up a GPS. The technology is here to stay, it's getting cheaper and more reliable each day, and it is a tremendous enhancement to safety and situational awareness if used properly. The added confidence of knowing that there are many alternatives, actually seems to help my cross country students relax and focus more on looking outside the aircraft and relating what they see to a VFR chart.
Think about it this way, who is more likely to get lost, a VFR only pilot or a well trained Instrument pilot? I never assume that my students are going to go on to an instrument rating so I try to teach them as much as they can absorb during their time with me.

phoenixflyer · January 31st, 2005, 02:09

I agree with holding off on the gps training until atleast post solo. But I also think that if the airplane is so equiped student pilots should be throughly trained in the operation of the unit. When I started my instrument training I had never flown with a gps but soon learned that if information was put in incorrectly you could find yourself in some trouble.

I have been spoiled... my flight school has a new Cirrus SR20 with Garmin 530, full glass cockpit, tcas, and terrain avoidance. Though I've only flown it once Im a true believer.

I'm now working on my commercial multi training in a Beechcraft Duchess without gps and am doing alot of night flights over the mountains of Arizona, even though I check my sectional many times in preflight planning, and enroute for altitudes that will assure me obstacle and terrain clearence, I get nervous knowing that if I made a mistake this could be my last flight. So I broke down shelled out $1700 for the Garmin 296. I believe it will truly be an educational tool for me and my future students as well as that extra margin of safety it provides.

It should be here on Tuesday Feb 2.... Ill let you all know how it works. Tuesday night I plan on flying to Laughlin, NV (Im going to try to win back some of that $1700 at the blackjack tables).

BrianH · January 31st, 2005, 18:09

Though I'm not an instructor and haven't started lessons quite yet, as a student I'd much prefer to learn to navigate without GPS, and then learn how to use the GPS to make it a bit easier when needed. GPS is fine and dandy, but if you can't fly without it then you're not only limiting yourself (what if you wind up needing to fly a plane without it?), but if the GPS fails...you're out of luck.

sorrygottarunway · February 1st, 2005, 22:04

[ QUOTE ]
Though I'm not an instructor and haven't started lessons quite yet, as a student I'd much prefer to learn to navigate without GPS, and then learn how to use the GPS to make it a bit easier when needed. GPS is fine and dandy, but if you can't fly without it then you're not only limiting yourself (what if you wind up needing to fly a plane without it?), but if the GPS fails...you're out of luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

one thing that never fails is my 2x4.

January 26th, 2005, 09:06	#1
sorrygottarunway Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DXR, Connecticut Posts: 1,177	lure of the gps one of my early morning (we're talking 6:30am) students is now starting his cross countries in a 152 and has seen the new arrival of a 172SP with weather, traffic avoidance, 1 garmin 530 and on garmin 430. Being a technophile he started salivating! So, being curious about the plane myself, I'm taking him on a lesson in it for tomorrow.. but this is the thing he wants to take on his cross countries... however, my view was that for his first and second cross country, the only technology he should have is his brain, a written flight plan, and a stopwatch. Am I, as a post-teenage CFI older fasioned than my student? Does the argument of safe technology really apply? I just want my student looking at a map, out the window, seeing how groundspeed is affected by wind. I know that GPS gives an instantaneous view of this- but what if the whole box goes kerplunk?

January 26th, 2005, 09:08	#2
sorrygottarunway Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DXR, Connecticut Posts: 1,177	Re: lure of the gps oh.. and he asked me if a portable moving-map would be helpful too. So I grabbed his sectional and shook back and fourth in front of his face "HERE's your moving map!"

January 26th, 2005, 09:54	#3
BoilerPilot2007 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 444	Re: lure of the gps Do your first dual cross countries without any use of the GPS Nav pages.. turn off the 530 if you can. Make sure you're completely comfortable that he can get to and from airports with the use of his moving map. Basically, forget there's a GPS sitting there. When thats done, explain that the GPS is a navigation AID to his sectional, nav log, etc. Also, show him how to use the Nearest function should he become lost. (After you've taught normal diversions of course). This way, he'll be able to do it on his own, realizing that the GPS is helpful but not the ONLY way to navigate. Make sure to teach him to program the route into the GPS so he can "follow along" on his solo cross countries. GPS is a great tool. If you've got one, use one. But respect the fact that they DO fail. This should teach him that technology is a useful tool, but the ability to actually FLY using dead reckoning and pilotage is still primary. Hope that helps give you an idea of how to integrate GPS training. It's worked well for me here at Purdue. Cheers, Evan

January 26th, 2005, 13:33	#4
lilrkt Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: D95: Lapeer, MI Posts: 230	Re: lure of the gps I see it both ways. In his flying career, he will most likely always have a GPS in the plane. He will have to know how to use it, and use it well. At the same time, he must ifrst become familiar with the pilotage. If something should happen to the GPS or he should find himself in a plane without one, he must still be able to navigate. I would judge this on a student by student basis. If you believe he really has a firm grip on his out-the-window navigation, start him on the GPS. If not, do not let him use it yet. He will have plenty of time down the road.

January 26th, 2005, 15:47	#5
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,879	Re: lure of the gps To me, a GPS to a new student seems more like "magic" than navigation. I'd say do the first couple of cross countries the old fashioned way, then add in the GPS. That way your student should understand what the GPS is doing. For example, how does it computer groundspeed? To someone that has never done the computations with an E6-B, it looks like magic. If he resists, tell him it'll prepare him for later when/if the GPS fails, has RAIM failure, etc. If he still resists, hit him with a clipboard.

January 26th, 2005, 17:55	#6
sorrygottarunway Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DXR, Connecticut Posts: 1,177	Re: lure of the gps [ QUOTE ] If he still resists, hit him with a clipboard. [/ QUOTE ] This has already been done. I make it common practice to beat my students. I need to buy a new one of these every 12 months, or after 1 hour of cumulative use... says so in 91.207

January 26th, 2005, 20:29	#7
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,567	Re: lure of the gps There's a guy at my flight school that insists that getting the proper frequency information from his handheld GPS is more efficient that the A/FD. Not sure how he made it this far. . .

January 26th, 2005, 20:32	#8
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,879	Re: lure of the gps You're kidding? First off, his dbase could be expired, second don't you have to scroll through a few menus? Man, I'd rather pull out the A/FD with the nicely darkened tabs and the alphabetically listed airports. Even better, write the freqs down on a piece of paper during pre-flight.....

January 26th, 2005, 20:48	#9
sorrygottarunway Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DXR, Connecticut Posts: 1,177	Re: lure of the gps [ QUOTE ] There's a guy at my flight school that insists that getting the proper frequency information from his handheld GPS is more efficient that the A/FD. Not sure how he made it this far. . . [/ QUOTE ] I have a student that comes in now and then for refresher-instrument training, basically for me to critique his approaches. He used to have this palm-pilot thingy with a huge antenna wire that he would entangle himself in during the approach. Managing the unit on his lap was also quite a challenge. Imagine at the FAF: "oh shoot, where's my stylus.." After a good helping from my 2-by-4, he's back on track.

January 27th, 2005, 00:03	#10
Texasspilot Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,080	Re: lure of the gps I always made all mine do it the old fashioned way. Sure they'll have gps in the future, but you have to make sure that they can do it all on thier own when thier just learning. If he still wants to do it in the 172 say fine...just take out the gps cards. Thats what I did.

January 27th, 2005, 00:06	#11
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,879	Re: lure of the gps I'm not saying DON'T teach him the GPS, though. It's a good point that he'll for sure encounter it later on. I think it might even be a requirement for the IR if it's installed in the aircraft.

January 27th, 2005, 01:37	#12
GatorFC Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: da' Bayou Posts: 1,687	Re: lure of the gps Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a demonstration of navigation by pilotage and dead reckoning required on the private checkride? I've always had a pretty good sense of direction, and I loved doing my private solo x-countries not only because I actually got to go somewhere instead of doing patterns all the time but I also got to test and confirm my basic navigational skills. My instructor at the time mounted his portable Garmin Pilot III on the right side yoke more for his peace of mind than mine. I told him I didn't need it and made a point to not even look at it during my x-countries. I always felt a greater sense of accomplishment being able to navigate the old-fashioned way rather than just by following a line on an lcd. If worse comes to worse, couldn't you tell your student that the DE is not going to let him use the gps or that he is going to turn it off in the middle of the flight and that he better know where he is or he's going to fail the ride. That should get him in line.

January 27th, 2005, 04:50	#13
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,567	Re: lure of the gps [ QUOTE ] I'm not saying DON'T teach him the GPS, though. It's a good point that he'll for sure encounter it later on. I think it might even be a requirement for the IR if it's installed in the aircraft. [/ QUOTE ] Oh, yes it is!! Big time. GPS, and autopilot. My trick is to just turn that crap off during most of the pre-solo training, and it's just the same to most of the students. Now, sometimes when a student just doesn't believe that the wind is affecting our groundspeed during manuevers, it's nice to have a tool to "prove it"...lol. I treat the GPS as an integral part of the aircraft, and an important tool - at the appropriate time. I tell my students that they'll get to use it - it's just not time yet. As far as taking out the NAVDATA cards? Hmmmm....it would have to have a placard, would it not? I just let them know that I'll kick the &^$^ out of them if they use it. . .

January 27th, 2005, 16:22	#14
Windchill Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Mid-Atlantic, KMRB Posts: 1,925	Re: lure of the gps Lloyd has that intimidation factor he can throw at his students ...

January 28th, 2005, 04:34	#15
LFC Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 121	Re: lure of the gps GPS is for losers. . . ADF is the way to go.

January 28th, 2005, 07:09	#16
GregCollins2 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Hendersonville, NC Posts: 284	Re: lure of the gps I personally love Pilotage and Ded-reckoning - I own a Champ with no electrical system . But....we have several examiners in Georgia that not only require a thorough understanding of the GPS, they expect the prospective pilot to be able to program, activate, and follow, a VFR cross country flight plan if there is a GPS in the aircraft, or the pilot brings a handheld to the flight test. I even know of an examiner in South Carolina that failed a Private candidate for not being able to use the nearest function during a simulated diversion. I teach my students to use every thing available to them, period. VORs, NDBs, FSS, Loran, GPS, ATC, Pilotage, and Ded-reckoning, and I teach it all from early on in the training. As long as lost procedures and basic common sense navigation skills are practiced regularly, the students won't get lost. In my opinion, I see too many new Private Pilots that fumble around trying to use Navaids, find a FSS or ARTCC frequency, or properly and quickly set up a GPS. The technology is here to stay, it's getting cheaper and more reliable each day, and it is a tremendous enhancement to safety and situational awareness if used properly. The added confidence of knowing that there are many alternatives, actually seems to help my cross country students relax and focus more on looking outside the aircraft and relating what they see to a VFR chart. Think about it this way, who is more likely to get lost, a VFR only pilot or a well trained Instrument pilot? I never assume that my students are going to go on to an instrument rating so I try to teach them as much as they can absorb during their time with me.

January 31st, 2005, 02:09	#17
phoenixflyer Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 106	Re: lure of the gps I agree with holding off on the gps training until atleast post solo. But I also think that if the airplane is so equiped student pilots should be throughly trained in the operation of the unit. When I started my instrument training I had never flown with a gps but soon learned that if information was put in incorrectly you could find yourself in some trouble. I have been spoiled... my flight school has a new Cirrus SR20 with Garmin 530, full glass cockpit, tcas, and terrain avoidance. Though I've only flown it once Im a true believer. I'm now working on my commercial multi training in a Beechcraft Duchess without gps and am doing alot of night flights over the mountains of Arizona, even though I check my sectional many times in preflight planning, and enroute for altitudes that will assure me obstacle and terrain clearence, I get nervous knowing that if I made a mistake this could be my last flight. So I broke down shelled out $1700 for the Garmin 296. I believe it will truly be an educational tool for me and my future students as well as that extra margin of safety it provides. It should be here on Tuesday Feb 2.... Ill let you all know how it works. Tuesday night I plan on flying to Laughlin, NV (Im going to try to win back some of that $1700 at the blackjack tables).

January 31st, 2005, 18:09	#18
BrianH Newbie Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: California Posts: 10	Re: lure of the gps Though I'm not an instructor and haven't started lessons quite yet, as a student I'd much prefer to learn to navigate without GPS, and then learn how to use the GPS to make it a bit easier when needed. GPS is fine and dandy, but if you can't fly without it then you're not only limiting yourself (what if you wind up needing to fly a plane without it?), but if the GPS fails...you're out of luck.

February 1st, 2005, 22:04	#19
sorrygottarunway Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DXR, Connecticut Posts: 1,177	Re: lure of the gps [ QUOTE ] Though I'm not an instructor and haven't started lessons quite yet, as a student I'd much prefer to learn to navigate without GPS, and then learn how to use the GPS to make it a bit easier when needed. GPS is fine and dandy, but if you can't fly without it then you're not only limiting yourself (what if you wind up needing to fly a plane without it?), but if the GPS fails...you're out of luck. [/ QUOTE ] one thing that never fails is my 2x4.

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