Acronym's...........

[jonnyb]

Hey guys (and gals),

Any of you remember those acronym's for required a/c instruments and equipment (day/night, IFR/VFR). Thanks.

[cime_sp]

Day VFR... (works best for a simple single-engine aircraft)

Gas guages
Oil temp
Oil Pressure
Seat belts/shoulder harnesses
ELT

Altimeter

Compass
Airspeed Indicator
Tachometer

Night VFR....

Fuses
Landing Light (if fir hire)
Anticollision
Position lights
Source of electricity

IFR
Generator/alternator
Radio
Altimeter(sensitive)
Ball (turn and slip)

Clock
Attitude indicator
Rate of turn indicator
Directional gyro

DME if > 24,000'

Hope that helps

[jonnyb]

Goose A Cat, N-Flaps and Grab Card. Yep that's it! Been a while. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Thanks dude. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[TallBoy85]

My personal favorite was Tomato Flames. Don't ask me to do it because I doubt I can. It works too...

Goose a Cat's pretty funny though... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif[/img]

[kellwolf]

Let's see if I can remember this...

Altimeter
Temperature Gauge (for liquid cooled engines)
Oil Pressure Gauge
Manifold Pressure for constant speed props
Airspeed Indicator
Tachometer
Oil Temp Gauge
Fuel Indicators (one for each tank)
Landing Gear indicators (if retractable gear)
Anti-collision lights
Magnetic Compass
Emergency Equipment (ELT, flotation devices if needed, etc)
Seatbelts

[MidlifeFlyer]

Of course, I hope you realize that there's a catch to the acronyms. I ran in informal survey last year. The result was that someone who learned the acronym was more likely to get a required equipment question wrong that someone who did not.

Here's an easy one. You are doing your preflight in a Cessna 172 for a day VFR flight. You discover that the stall warning horn is inoperative. May you legally fly the airplane?

[Jeff_S_KDTW]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's an easy one. You are doing your preflight in a Cessna 172 for a day VFR flight. You discover that the stall warning horn is inoperative. May you legally fly the airplane?

[/ QUOTE ]Can I play? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[stuckingfk]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, I hope you realize that there's a catch to the acronyms. I ran in informal survey last year. The result was that someone who learned the acronym was more likely to get a required equipment question wrong that someone who did not.

Here's an easy one. You are doing your preflight in a Cessna 172 for a day VFR flight. You discover that the stall warning horn is inoperative. May you legally fly the airplane?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll say no, I am sure it would fall under 91.213 and the what the 172 was type certificated for.

[kellwolf]

Hmm, although not listed in 91.205 (where most of the acronyms come from), I THINK the stall warning horn is part of the required equipment listed in the POH (mine is three states away right now, so it's a little difficult to check).

[TallBoy85]

*sigh*
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may take off an aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment installed unless the following conditions are met

That's 91.213(a). That has nothing to do with the certification requirements of the airplane. Everyone gets that question wrong because before I started working at my last school, not even RIDDLE taught maintenance right. No person may TAKE OFF. If it fails in flight you're legal, that's the first cool part. Under our MEL we had, I don't believe we could MEL the stall warning horn, but we could have a mechanic defer it, or defer anything else that wasn't on our MEL indefinitely. If you didn't have an MEL, you could have the inoperative equipment removed if possible or deactivated and placarded inoperative by a mechanic and deferred in your maintenance logs. I remember hearing about a FAA maintenance crack down where they were citing pilots for flying with inoperative cigar lighters on their Bonanzas.

Oh and Paragraph (d) of 91.213 is the flow you're required to go through any time you find inoperative equipment on your airplane, and completing that flow finds the aircraft in an acceptably altered state to the administrator, which includes grounding it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif[/img]

[kellwolf]

D'oh! I forgot about the whole "labeling inop or removing" thingy.

[RiddlePilot]

[ QUOTE ]
not even RIDDLE taught maintenance right

[/ QUOTE ]

They still don't. I got my ass handed to me during my CFI initial because of it, too.

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an easy one. You are doing your preflight in a Cessna 172 for a day VFR flight. You discover that the stall warning horn is inoperative. May you legally fly the airplane?

[/ QUOTE ]Can I play? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]Only if you think you'll get it right this time. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] (only kidding)

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Under our MEL we had, I don't believe we could MEL the stall warning horn, but we could have a mechanic defer it, or defer anything else that wasn't on our MEL indefinitely. If you didn't have an MEL, you could have the inoperative equipment removed if possible or deactivated and placarded inoperative by a mechanic and deferred in your maintenance logs.

[/ QUOTE ]No. I'm not sure what the *sigh* was for since Kel was absolutely right.

Look at 91.213(d). In the no-MEL situation, there's are four groups of "always required" equipment that maintenance personnel cannot remove or deactivate and placard and defer and make it legal to take off. The C172 stall warning horn is one of them.

[JEP]

Prepping for my IFR Checkride so here we go:
IFR (When to Report): MATURESCAN
Missed Approach
Altitude Changes
TAS changes of 5%/10kts whatever is greater
Unable to climb/descend 500/fpm
Reaching a hold/FAF
Exiting a hold/FAF
Safe (unforecast wx)
Comm failure
Aviation Failure
Navigation Failure

Position Reporting Requirements IPATTENS
Identification
Place
Altitude
Time
Type (aircraft)
Eta at next checkpoint
Next checkpoint after that
remarkS

Approach Self Briefing - MARTHA
Missed Approach Procedures
initial Altitude
Rate of Descent
Time (FAF to MAP/DH)
Heading - (Inbound Course)
missed approach Altitude (DH/MAP)

[roundout]

[ QUOTE ]
Look at 91.213(d). In the no-MEL situation, there's are four groups of "always required" equipment that maintenance personnel cannot remove or deactivate and placard and defer and make it legal to take off. The C172 stall warning horn is one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

mark, where would one find this list of stuff? i've heard it mentioned before, but since 2 of the 3 places from which i've ever rented aircraft have MELs in place, i've never really pursued it that much. i think this is something most people misunderstand.

[jonnyb]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what the *sigh* was for since Kel was absolutely right

[/ QUOTE ]

No kidding. What the hell is this guys problem? (Tallboy85)

Hey Tallboy, every time I read one of you're posts, they appear snide and you sound like a wise ass. If we are getting you wrong, then sorry, just use the freakin' "smilies" to get your demeanor across properly. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]
mark, where would one find this list of stuff? i've heard it mentioned before, but since 2 of the 3 places from which i've ever rented aircraft have MELs in place, i've never really pursued it that much. i think this is something most people misunderstand.

[/ QUOTE ] When I did the quiz last year, I got a number of incorrect answers from CFIs. FWIW, here is the answer I eventually posted:

==============================
The Answer

The answer ultimately depends on your airplane, but the chances are excellent you may =not= legally fly the airplane without a special flight permit under 91.213(e). For illustration, since so many of us are familiar with them, I'll refer to a generic Cessna 172.

My argument is that the emphasis on memorizing 91.205 is a bad thing. If your answer (even if you just thought about it but didn't respond) was "yes, because the stall warning horn is not listed in 91.205", please think about how learning TOMATO FLAMES or GOOSE A CAT has misled you.

Those who started with 91.213 rather than 91.205 were on the right track. Assuming that there is no MEL for the airplane, 91.213 tells us we cannot fly with =any= inoperative equipment unless two conditions are met:

1. The inoperative equipment is not one of those that is "always required" to work - 91.213(d)(2)

AND

2. If the equipment is not "always required", it must be removed or deactivated, placarded, and logged - 91.213(d)(3).

Starting with the first condition, there are 4 groups of "always required" equipment listed in 91.213(d)(2):

(a) Required by the airworthiness regulations in effect when the aircraft was certified. - 91.213(d)(2)(i)

(b) Marked required in the equipment list - 91.213(d)(2)(ii)

(c) Required by § 91.205 (or other Part 91 rule) - 91.213(d)(2)(iii) (Notice how the one we are forced to memorize is only a very small piece of the equation)

(d) Required to work by an AD - 91.213(d)(2(iv)

Group (a) can be tough. Regulations change. The current regulations for certification of normal, utility, acrobatic and commuter aircraft are under FAR Part 23, although older Cessna models were certified under the older Civil Air Regulations (CAR) Part 3. (If someone has a copy of the CAR, I'd love to see it!) But, if you take a look at FAR 23.207, you'll find that airplanes certified under Part 23 are required to have a stall warning system.

Fortunately, as we'll see, there is an overlap between group (a) and group (b).

Group (b) is pretty easy. Look in the Weight and Balance section of a modern POH and you'll find the equipment list. In the equipment list for Cessna 172 for example. You'll find the stall warning horn clearly marked "Required".

In terms of overlap with the (a) group, you probably won't be surprised to find that if a piece of equipment was required for certification, it also appears as "Required" in the equipment list.

Do you fly an older airplane without an marked equipment list? All is not lost. Each airplane has a Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) that identifies the rules under which the airplane was certified. They are available online at www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet. The TCDS that applies to all 172 models through the Q series contains the requirement for a stall warning indicator.

We don't even have to get to group (c) (the one we are forced to memorize). And it wouldn't help us a bit if we did look at it.

Removal, deactivation and placarding under 91.213(d)(3) don't make any difference. Placarding only helps with equipment that isn't "always required". The stall warning horn =is= required.

BTW, for those who say, "I don't care if were legal to fly without it, =I= wouldn't", congratulations! That's really the most important step and the one that makes the difference between a pilot and someone just going for a ride.

==============================

[BoDEAN]

[ QUOTE ]
Prepping for my IFR Checkride so here we go:
IFR (When to Report): MATURESCAN
Missed Approach
Altitude Changes
TAS changes of 5%/10kts whatever is greater
Unable to climb/descend 500/fpm
Reaching a hold/FAF
Exiting a hold/FAF
Safe (unforecast wx)
Comm failure
Aviation Failure
Navigation Failure

Position Reporting Requirements IPATTENS
Identification
Place
Altitude
Time
Type (aircraft)
Eta at next checkpoint
Next checkpoint after that
remarkS

Approach Self Briefing - MARTHA
Missed Approach Procedures
initial Altitude
Rate of Descent
Time (FAF to MAP/DH)
Heading - (Inbound Course)
missed approach Altitude (DH/MAP)

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep them coming. Getting ready for my CFII ride

[roundout]

i'm glad that you have the legalese background when dealing with all the FARs, mark. i could read 91.213 all day long (actually i've tried) and understand what's written but not understand what the book is trying to tell me. many thanks, and i doubt i speak for myself alone, for your understanding.

[pavelump]

My favorite is still "My Hot Red Bone Makes Babies" for MH + RB = MB. There's a PG version too, but I don't remember it...

Dave

[MidlifeFlyer]

Thank you. Believe it or not, without even getting near taxes, there are federal regulations that are much, much worse than the FAR. You should read some of the stuff banks have to follow when they give you a loan!

[JHines]

[ QUOTE ]
...older Cessna models were certified under the older Civil Air Regulations (CAR) Part 3. (If someone has a copy of the CAR, I'd love to see it!)

[/ QUOTE ]

CAR part 3

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
My favorite is still "My Hot Red Bone Makes Babies" for MH + RB = MB. There's a PG version too, but I don't remember it...

[/ QUOTE ]

Mad Hares + Rabid Bats = Mad Bunnies?

Something like that.....

[Captain_Bob]

This is the one I used... PG Rated... and it got me through my Instrument Test.
My Body Must Have Red Blood. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
MB = MH + RB

Bob