cfi minimum time = 500?

E_Dawg · July 22nd, 2004, 00:54

So I go into work and some guys are talking about the FAA raising the minimum time from 250 to 500hrs to get a cfi cert... anyone else hear about this?

RiddlePilot · July 22nd, 2004, 01:59

Haven't heard a thing. But seriously though, where are people supposed to get 250+ hours before they can get a CFI certificate?

BANYO · July 22nd, 2004, 06:26

The idea has come up from time to time. I believe NAFI is a big proponent. The idea is to produce more professional, career-type instructors, possibly leading to higher pay since CFIs would become a scarcer commodity. It would be interesting to see what a change like that would do the academies and a lot of the FBOs...

mtsu_av8er · July 22nd, 2004, 07:33

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't heard a thing. But seriously though, where are people supposed to get 250+ hours before they can get a CFI certificate?

[/ QUOTE ]

The same place we get 250 hours!!

Stone Cold · July 22nd, 2004, 07:53

if they want more professional, career type CFIs, they should look at the FBOs/academies/mom & pop shops and get them to pay more. I realize the flight school business has an extremely small profit margin, but when you have a school that charges $44/hour for an instructor and pays $15/hour, (and some even lower that number for ground school, like your knowledge level changes then), then you are going to have a high turn-over.

The school I work for charges $40 and pays $25/hour, which I realize is probably some of the higher-end pay in the market. I also get privately-owned instruction and set my own price, which at most schools doesn't happen. I still couldn't live off this, since I don't get enough flights to be full time at this. How in the world would I look my wife in the eyes and say, I've decided to do this for the rest of my life? I would be divorced in minutes.

Anyways, enough of my soap box. All they're going to get out of this is even more renters building flight time, since very few people will hire a 250 hour pilot.

jonnyb · July 22nd, 2004, 11:03

[ QUOTE ]
the FAA raising the minimum time from 250 to 500hrs to get a cfi cert

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe it Ed. It's not logical. In other words dude, I'll believe it when I see it. I guess we shall see. *(in subliminal man's voice), AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.*

Ralgha · July 22nd, 2004, 11:19

I'd support that. I didn't start using my CFI certificate until I had about 550 hours anyway. I think a higher time requirement would at least lead to instructors with a bit more experience, if not ones who are more dedicated.

Many of the 250 hour CFIs have probably flown very little outside a training environment, and requiring an extra 250 hours may kick them out of the nest for a while so to speak.

jonnyb · July 22nd, 2004, 11:36

[ QUOTE ]
I'd support that. I didn't start using my CFI certificate until I had about 550 hours anyway. I think a higher time requirement would at least lead to instructors with a bit more experience, if not ones who are more dedicated.

Many of the 250 hour CFIs have probably flown very little outside a training environment, and requiring an extra 250 hours may kick them out of the nest for a while so to speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't say I disagree with you. What you say is true, however, not for every young instructor. Ed is a perfect example of why they shouldn't change the rule, however, I have known several CFI's in the past with 2000 hours who shouldn't have been teaching. It all depends on the ability and maturity level of the individual. I think the FAA should just leave the decision in the hands of the examiner.

Only thing is, the domino effect will cause huge changes across the board. I doubt the FAA wants to deal with the red tape and headaches that will come with the change. Like I said, we shall see.

BoilerPilot2007 · July 22nd, 2004, 15:19

Jonnyb hit it right on the head. In my opinion, its the knowledge you know, and your ability to convey the correct knowledge to the student that really determines a good CFI, not the number of hours.

Of course, experience is something that cannot be taught, and must be gained through one's career. But its not fair to say that a 500 hour CFI has more "experience," "skills," or "professionalism" to teach as opposed to a 250 or 300 hour student.

Personally, I couldn't support the change, but I guess with the pass rate at FSDO's nationwide, they must think for some reason its beneficial...

...... if the rumor's true at all

ClipperPilot · July 22nd, 2004, 15:20

I dont even want to think about it.

E_Dawg · July 22nd, 2004, 15:46

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe it Ed. It's not logical. In other words dude, I'll believe it when I see it. I guess we shall see. *(in subliminal man's voice), AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.*

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I hadn't heard of it before either... just wondering if you guys had; I would be very opposed to that change, look at all the pilots who would not be able to afford 500 hrs of flight... it would really hurt the industry: there'd be lest people training, less pilots, more guys who are successful in other professional jobs switching careers and buying a pilot seat.

Anyway a local examiner was talking about it, saying the faa would try to make the change within 2 years... until I hear more I don't think it'll happen.

Icelandair · July 23rd, 2004, 00:23

If people were required to get the extra 250 hours somewhere else, where else would that be??? Who is going to hire a guy with just 200 hours fresh out of flight school? Unfortunately CFI'ing is one of the most practical ways to build hours and experience.

How would such a change affect part 141 schools?

BANYO · July 23rd, 2004, 03:24

[ QUOTE ]
If people were required to get the extra 250 hours somewhere else, where else would that be??? Who is going to hire a guy with just 200 hours fresh out of flight school? Unfortunately CFI'ing is one of the most practical ways to build hours and experience.

It is unfortunate that CFI'ing is the most practical way to build time and experience because flight schools, for the most part, are staffed with instructors who have little desire to be instructors. Understandable, since the pay is low. I think the FAA's concern is quality of instruction overall. If you're just a right seat timebuilder, how dedicated can you be to teaching safe, proficient pilots? I could see this leading to 2 "classifications" of instructors, with some sort of apprentice instructor able to build the additional time in a sort of SIC way. I don't know...SkyGuyEd is right, this would definitely lead to turmoil in the industry!

mastermags · July 24th, 2004, 23:05

Two years, eh? That gives me two years to get grandfathered in... Im up to the challenge [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/argue.gif[/img]

GregCollins2 · July 25th, 2004, 07:26

I haven't heard any mention of an increase in hours to qualify for the CFI rating at the Atlanta FSDO. I've got a safety counselor class in a couple of weeks, and I will ask. Any change like that would require an NPRM and comment period. AOPA would fight against it (they like cheap instructors for their members). The up side for those of us already there, is that it would go a long way toward increasing instructor pay, and make CFI jobs more plentiful.

Your DPE may be confusing the change with the FAA's Aerial Tour NPRM which would require that Flight Instructors providing sight-seeing flights be Part-135 VFR qualified. That is in the works right now, and may very well pass in a year or two.

July 25th, 2004, 10:39

It is a shame how low the pay for pilots are. So much responsibility, yet so low pay. Other job that don't require as much of a responsibility pays more.

Grabo172 · July 25th, 2004, 19:15

[ QUOTE ]
It is a shame how low the pay for pilots are. So much responsibility, yet so low pay. Other job that don't require as much of a responsibility pays more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Garbage men ("people" for those who need political correctness) get paid Much Much more than I do as a CFI. I had a friend in HS that his dad worked as a collector for BFI and made somewhere in the ball park of $50K... but alas, thats another topic all together!

Tired · July 26th, 2004, 02:34

If they rasied the pay then people would stay around longer, which means less jobs to go around to new CFIs. It's lose-lose no matter what happens.

Get to 1200TT and then get as far away from flight instructing as you can.

Cosmo1999 · July 26th, 2004, 03:47

[ QUOTE ]
If they rasied the pay then people would stay around longer, which means less jobs to go around to new CFIs. It's lose-lose no matter what happens.Get to 1200TT and then get as far away from flight instructing as you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everytime someone trys to take a step forward this type of thinking causes two steps backward [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] This doesnt apply to instructing alone either

pilot602 · July 26th, 2004, 13:12

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If they rasied the pay then people would stay around longer, which means less jobs to go around to new CFIs. It's lose-lose no matter what happens.Get to 1200TT and then get as far away from flight instructing as you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everytime someone trys to take a step forward this type of thinking causes two steps backward [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] This doesnt apply to instructing alone either

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup.

mastermags · July 26th, 2004, 21:53

Imagine what this would do to the acadamies like ATP. People dont seem to mind dumping $30000 to get all their ratings... but $60000??? To go on and make $12k a year for an indefinate amount of time??? It doesnt add up.

RiddlePilot · July 27th, 2004, 01:29

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine what this would do to the acadamies like ATP. People dont seem to mind dumping $30000 to get all their ratings... but $60000??? To go on and make $12k a year for an indefinate amount of time??? It doesnt add up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, I resemble that remark. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

mtsu_av8er · July 27th, 2004, 01:44

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Imagine what this would do to the acadamies like ATP. People dont seem to mind dumping $30000 to get all their ratings... but $60000??? To go on and make $12k a year for an indefinate amount of time??? It doesnt add up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, I resemble that remark. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

We've got a couple of Jesse Jacksons around here... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

BANYO · July 28th, 2004, 02:35

[ QUOTE ]

Get to 1200TT and then get as far away from flight instructing as you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe the FAA should consider raising the minimum time for CFI...

CaptChris · July 28th, 2004, 11:13

Not true---because then they would have to render the part 141 programs as well. In 141 programs you get your commercial at 190-200! And I know we aren't required to get up to 250 for CFI now!

July 22nd, 2004, 00:54	#1
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 4,232	cfi minimum time = 500? So I go into work and some guys are talking about the FAA raising the minimum time from 250 to 500hrs to get a cfi cert... anyone else hear about this?

July 22nd, 2004, 01:59	#2
RiddlePilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 928	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? Haven't heard a thing. But seriously though, where are people supposed to get 250+ hours before they can get a CFI certificate?

July 22nd, 2004, 06:26	#3
BANYO Newbie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 8	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? The idea has come up from time to time. I believe NAFI is a big proponent. The idea is to produce more professional, career-type instructors, possibly leading to higher pay since CFIs would become a scarcer commodity. It would be interesting to see what a change like that would do the academies and a lot of the FBOs...

July 22nd, 2004, 07:33	#4
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,564	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? [ QUOTE ] Haven't heard a thing. But seriously though, where are people supposed to get 250+ hours before they can get a CFI certificate? [/ QUOTE ] The same place we get 250 hours!!

July 22nd, 2004, 07:53	#5
Stone Cold Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: SE US & Kiev Posts: 3,020	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? if they want more professional, career type CFIs, they should look at the FBOs/academies/mom & pop shops and get them to pay more. I realize the flight school business has an extremely small profit margin, but when you have a school that charges $44/hour for an instructor and pays $15/hour, (and some even lower that number for ground school, like your knowledge level changes then), then you are going to have a high turn-over. The school I work for charges $40 and pays $25/hour, which I realize is probably some of the higher-end pay in the market. I also get privately-owned instruction and set my own price, which at most schools doesn't happen. I still couldn't live off this, since I don't get enough flights to be full time at this. How in the world would I look my wife in the eyes and say, I've decided to do this for the rest of my life? I would be divorced in minutes. Anyways, enough of my soap box. All they're going to get out of this is even more renters building flight time, since very few people will hire a 250 hour pilot.

July 22nd, 2004, 11:03	#6
jonnyb Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: So. California Posts: 1,304	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? [ QUOTE ] the FAA raising the minimum time from 250 to 500hrs to get a cfi cert [/ QUOTE ] I don't believe it Ed. It's not logical. In other words dude, I'll believe it when I see it. I guess we shall see. (in subliminal man's voice), AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

July 22nd, 2004, 11:19	#7
Ralgha Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fresno, CA Posts: 918	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? I'd support that. I didn't start using my CFI certificate until I had about 550 hours anyway. I think a higher time requirement would at least lead to instructors with a bit more experience, if not ones who are more dedicated. Many of the 250 hour CFIs have probably flown very little outside a training environment, and requiring an extra 250 hours may kick them out of the nest for a while so to speak.

July 22nd, 2004, 11:36	#8
jonnyb Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: So. California Posts: 1,304	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? [ QUOTE ] I'd support that. I didn't start using my CFI certificate until I had about 550 hours anyway. I think a higher time requirement would at least lead to instructors with a bit more experience, if not ones who are more dedicated. Many of the 250 hour CFIs have probably flown very little outside a training environment, and requiring an extra 250 hours may kick them out of the nest for a while so to speak. [/ QUOTE ] I can't say I disagree with you. What you say is true, however, not for every young instructor. Ed is a perfect example of why they shouldn't change the rule, however, I have known several CFI's in the past with 2000 hours who shouldn't have been teaching. It all depends on the ability and maturity level of the individual. I think the FAA should just leave the decision in the hands of the examiner. Only thing is, the domino effect will cause huge changes across the board. I doubt the FAA wants to deal with the red tape and headaches that will come with the change. Like I said, we shall see.

July 22nd, 2004, 15:19	#9
BoilerPilot2007 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 444	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? Jonnyb hit it right on the head. In my opinion, its the knowledge you know, and your ability to convey the correct knowledge to the student that really determines a good CFI, not the number of hours. Of course, experience is something that cannot be taught, and must be gained through one's career. But its not fair to say that a 500 hour CFI has more "experience," "skills," or "professionalism" to teach as opposed to a 250 or 300 hour student. Personally, I couldn't support the change, but I guess with the pass rate at FSDO's nationwide, they must think for some reason its beneficial... ...... if the rumor's true at all

July 22nd, 2004, 15:20	#10
ClipperPilot Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Ft.lauderdale FL Posts: 104	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? I dont even want to think about it.

July 22nd, 2004, 15:46	#11
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 4,232	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? [ QUOTE ] I don't believe it Ed. It's not logical. In other words dude, I'll believe it when I see it. I guess we shall see. (in subliminal man's voice), AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah I hadn't heard of it before either... just wondering if you guys had; I would be very opposed to that change, look at all the pilots who would not be able to afford 500 hrs of flight... it would really hurt the industry: there'd be lest people training, less pilots, more guys who are successful in other professional jobs switching careers and buying a pilot seat. Anyway a local examiner was talking about it, saying the faa would try to make the change within 2 years... until I hear more I don't think it'll happen.

July 23rd, 2004, 00:23	#12
Icelandair Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: North Dakota, USA Posts: 247	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? If people were required to get the extra 250 hours somewhere else, where else would that be??? Who is going to hire a guy with just 200 hours fresh out of flight school? Unfortunately CFI'ing is one of the most practical ways to build hours and experience. How would such a change affect part 141 schools?

July 23rd, 2004, 03:24	#13
BANYO Newbie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 8	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? [ QUOTE ] If people were required to get the extra 250 hours somewhere else, where else would that be??? Who is going to hire a guy with just 200 hours fresh out of flight school? Unfortunately CFI'ing is one of the most practical ways to build hours and experience. It is unfortunate that CFI'ing is the most practical way to build time and experience because flight schools, for the most part, are staffed with instructors who have little desire to be instructors. Understandable, since the pay is low. I think the FAA's concern is quality of instruction overall. If you're just a right seat timebuilder, how dedicated can you be to teaching safe, proficient pilots? I could see this leading to 2 "classifications" of instructors, with some sort of apprentice instructor able to build the additional time in a sort of SIC way. I don't know...SkyGuyEd is right, this would definitely lead to turmoil in the industry!

July 24th, 2004, 23:05	#14
mastermags Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 1,308	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? Two years, eh? That gives me two years to get grandfathered in... Im up to the challenge [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/argue.gif[/img]

July 25th, 2004, 07:26	#15
GregCollins2 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Hendersonville, NC Posts: 284	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? I haven't heard any mention of an increase in hours to qualify for the CFI rating at the Atlanta FSDO. I've got a safety counselor class in a couple of weeks, and I will ask. Any change like that would require an NPRM and comment period. AOPA would fight against it (they like cheap instructors for their members). The up side for those of us already there, is that it would go a long way toward increasing instructor pay, and make CFI jobs more plentiful. Your DPE may be confusing the change with the FAA's Aerial Tour NPRM which would require that Flight Instructors providing sight-seeing flights be Part-135 VFR qualified. That is in the works right now, and may very well pass in a year or two.

July 25th, 2004, 10:39	#16
Lurker Posts: n/a	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? It is a shame how low the pay for pilots are. So much responsibility, yet so low pay. Other job that don't require as much of a responsibility pays more.

July 25th, 2004, 19:15	#17
Grabo172 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Peterborough, NH Posts: 1,281	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? [ QUOTE ] It is a shame how low the pay for pilots are. So much responsibility, yet so low pay. Other job that don't require as much of a responsibility pays more. [/ QUOTE ] Garbage men ("people" for those who need political correctness) get paid Much Much more than I do as a CFI. I had a friend in HS that his dad worked as a collector for BFI and made somewhere in the ball park of $50K... but alas, thats another topic all together!

July 26th, 2004, 02:34	#18
Tired Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 514	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? If they rasied the pay then people would stay around longer, which means less jobs to go around to new CFIs. It's lose-lose no matter what happens. Get to 1200TT and then get as far away from flight instructing as you can.

July 26th, 2004, 03:47	#19
Cosmo1999 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 247	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? [ QUOTE ] If they rasied the pay then people would stay around longer, which means less jobs to go around to new CFIs. It's lose-lose no matter what happens.Get to 1200TT and then get as far away from flight instructing as you can. [/ QUOTE ] Everytime someone trys to take a step forward this type of thinking causes two steps backward [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] This doesnt apply to instructing alone either

July 26th, 2004, 13:12	#20
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,750	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If they rasied the pay then people would stay around longer, which means less jobs to go around to new CFIs. It's lose-lose no matter what happens.Get to 1200TT and then get as far away from flight instructing as you can. [/ QUOTE ] Everytime someone trys to take a step forward this type of thinking causes two steps backward [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] This doesnt apply to instructing alone either [/ QUOTE ] Yup.

July 26th, 2004, 21:53	#21
mastermags Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 1,308	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? Imagine what this would do to the acadamies like ATP. People dont seem to mind dumping $30000 to get all their ratings... but $60000??? To go on and make $12k a year for an indefinate amount of time??? It doesnt add up.

July 27th, 2004, 01:29	#22
RiddlePilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 928	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? [ QUOTE ] Imagine what this would do to the acadamies like ATP. People dont seem to mind dumping $30000 to get all their ratings... but $60000??? To go on and make $12k a year for an indefinate amount of time??? It doesnt add up. [/ QUOTE ] Hey, I resemble that remark. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

July 27th, 2004, 01:44	#23
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,564	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Imagine what this would do to the acadamies like ATP. People dont seem to mind dumping $30000 to get all their ratings... but $60000??? To go on and make $12k a year for an indefinate amount of time??? It doesnt add up. [/ QUOTE ] Hey, I resemble that remark. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] We've got a couple of Jesse Jacksons around here... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

July 28th, 2004, 02:35	#24
BANYO Newbie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 8	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? [ QUOTE ] Get to 1200TT and then get as far away from flight instructing as you can. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe the FAA should consider raising the minimum time for CFI...

July 28th, 2004, 11:13	#25
CaptChris Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 549	Re: cfi minimum time = 500? Not true---because then they would have to render the part 141 programs as well. In 141 programs you get your commercial at 190-200! And I know we aren't required to get up to 250 for CFI now!

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