CRJ Program

[smokey1]

I am in no way bashing your pilot devlopment course. And I tip my hat to you for providing quality career flight training. However, I frown on rj courses. Even the one at my former employer.

[Michael95U]

Originally Posted by smokey1

I am in no way bashing your pilot devlopment course. And I tip my hat to you for providing quality career flight training. However, I frown on rj courses. Even the one at my former employer.

Listen, we are all passionate about how certain things should be done. I am passionate about no safety pilot time (I think it is absolutely worthless). You don't like RJ courses. We can all agree to disagree, right?

[smokey1]

Originally Posted by MichaelCPS

Listen, we are all passionate about how certain things should be done. I am passionate about no safety pilot time (I think it is absolutely worthless)

True

[freedevil]

There's no point arguing back and forth if someone feels they benefit from a CRJ course then so be it, it's their personal decision. What sense does it make in justifying why it's good or pointless? Many schools offer it and CPS does as well.

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

If you fail out of 121 training you where either not ready or an idiot. Either way I don't what them flying my family around.
121 training was a joke compared to CFI ground school at Falcon.

This is just a sad statement for 121 training nowadays. When I did my first 121 training course in the 1900, it was some hard stuff! We had to know every little thing about that airplane. Every PSI, every temperature, practically every rivet. I still know more about that airplane that I only flew as an FO for a few hundred hours than I know about the airplanes I'm typed in! Part 121 training used to really mean something. It's gone downhill very fast.

Michael, as for your training program, I applaud you. Not everyone around here is opposed to RJ courses. I think if they're structured right, then they're a great thing. Pinnacle's washout rate dropped drastically after we started taking RJ course graduates from ATPs. A good course can be a great jump start for low-time pilots that, let's face it, are going to struggle to adapt in the airline environment in high performance jet aircraft. A CRJ is not a toy. It's not easy for these guys to go from flying Seminoles to CRJs in a few short months. A good RJ course can ease the transition. Just make sure that you have a good program with highly experienced instructors. I would suggest trying to get some pilots from the majors to assist you. This is what ATP does, and it makes a big difference. A bunch of newbie Skywest pilots aren't going to be much help. Just my $0.02.

[Michael95U]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

This is just a sad statement for 121 training nowadays. When I did my first 121 training course in the 1900, it was some hard stuff! We had to know every little thing about that airplane. Every PSI, every temperature, practically every rivet. I still know more about that airplane that I only flew as an FO for a few hundred hours than I know about the airplanes I'm typed in! Part 121 training used to really mean something. It's gone downhill very fast.

Michael, as for your training program, I applaud you. Not everyone around here is opposed to RJ courses. I think if they're structured right, then they're a great thing. Pinnacle's washout rate dropped drastically after we started taking RJ course graduates from ATPs. A good course can be a great jump start for low-time pilots that, let's face it, are going to struggle to adapt in the airline environment in high performance jet aircraft. A CRJ is not a toy. It's not easy for these guys to go from flying Seminoles to CRJs in a few short months. A good RJ course can ease the transition. Just make sure that you have a good program with highly experienced instructors. I would suggest trying to get some pilots from the majors to assist you. This is what ATP does, and it makes a big difference. A bunch of newbie Skywest pilots aren't going to be much help. Just my $0.02.

I appreciate the post.

Michael

[Gonzo]

Michael, A good RJ program is not the end of the world, but so far I haven't seen a good RJ program. if you care I would tell you to drop the systems and FMS. There are a lot of RJ's most are not the same from one company to another. Like Todd said get guys from the majors to help with classes. Can the FTD do visual approaches if not get them out in the twin comanche and put them at 7,000 feet in the downwind and tell them to land.

[Michael95U]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Michael, A good RJ program is not the end of the world, but so far I haven't seen a good RJ program. if you care I would tell you to drop the systems and FMS. There are a lot of RJ's most are not the same from one company to another. Like Todd said get guys from the majors to help with classes. Can the FTD do visual approaches if not get them out in the twin comanche and put them at 7,000 feet in the downwind and tell them to land.

Well, hopefully we are the first good one you will see. I personally think that a general systems class is important, as well as some FMS work. It is different enough from the 430/530/G1000 that most students utilize and I truly believe they benefit from seeing what the FMS is all about.

I will have to search out some guys from the majors to take part in teaching. I have experienced RJ pilots right now, but I could see how mixing in some major airline pilots would be of benefit.

As for visual approaches, yes, it is possible.

Michael

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by MichaelCPS

I have two questions for you:

1) Is it bad from the airline's perspective to have a good number of new hires fail some part of 121 training?

No it's not, but logic would dictate you start raising your experience requirements in order to hire people that meet your standards. Not lowering the standards to the point newhires need remedial training prior to being hired.

Originally Posted by MichaelCPS

2) Is it good for the new hire's career if they fail out of part 121 training?

Not my problem. Perhaps the person should not be applying for a job above their experience level.

I stand by the statement that I have always said. There is not a shortage of pilots. There is a shortage of pilots willing to accept regionals' (lack of) benefits package. The airlines and pilots schools are preying off one another, in such that the schools convince guys to take a course to get an early airline job. The airlines recoup some of their losses from retraining, and they hire low timers that haven't been around the business long enough to see through the smoke and mirrors. The airlines also know that these guys are generally so glad to be hired that they ignore the low pay and bad schedules...because (say it together..) they'll only be there a few years.

Originally Posted by PCL_128

When I did my first 121 training course in the 1900, it was some hard stuff!

I'm sure it was....but. How much time did you have when you were hired at "that place?" Do you think someone with 2000-3000 hours would have found it as difficult?

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Part 121 training used to really mean something. It's gone downhill very fast.

There was bound to be something I would agree with you on.

[ATN_Pilot]

Sorry, but a 3,000 CFI is just as useless in the right seat of a CRJ as a 250 hour wonder who just graduated from Delta Connection Academy. I had plenty of both in my right seat, and I couldn't tell the difference between them. All of that CFI "experience" doesn't mean jack. The RJ programs help guys transition to an airline environment. They serve a purpose, and I don't blame airlines for liking them.

[Michael95U]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

I stand by the statement that I have always said. There is not a shortage of pilots. There is a shortage of pilots willing to accept regionals' (lack of) benefits package. The airlines and pilots schools are preying off one another, in such that the schools convince guys to take a course to get an early airline job. The airlines recoup some of their losses from retraining, and they hire low timers that haven't been around the business long enough to see through the smoke and mirrors. The airlines also know that these guys are generally so glad to be hired that they ignore the low pay and bad schedules...because (say it together..) they'll only be there a few years.

Wait, are you saying the pay at the regionals was better BEFORE there were RJ bridge courses? You had guys with MORE experience/hours (Part 135, Cargo, 1000+ hours of dual given) taking those jobs. So let's not try to show someone that if they go the Part 135, Cargo, 1000+ hours of dual given and THEN to the Regionals route that they are going to get better first year pay.

[Michael95U]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Sorry, but a 3,000 CFI is just as useless in the right seat of a CRJ as a 250 hour wonder who just graduated from Delta Connection Academy. I had plenty of both in my right seat, and I couldn't tell the difference between them. All of that CFI "experience" doesn't mean jack. The RJ programs help guys transition to an airline environment. They serve a purpose, and I don't blame airlines for liking them.

While I do see merit in flight instruction, you are correct. It does not prepare someone for the right seat of a jet.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Sorry, but a 3,000 CFI is just as useless in the right seat of a CRJ as a 250 hour wonder who just graduated from Delta Connection Academy.

You assumed that I was speaking of a 3000 hr CFI. I wasn't.

Try that statement with a 3000 hr pilot who did 1200 CFI another 1000 as a single pilot freight dog and another 800 or so multi turbine 91/135. No comparison...Other than after 3000 "real world" hours the pilot has probably learned enough to stay away from regionals....and won't accept the pay cut, and doesn't have SJS eyes anymore.

Originally Posted by MichaelCPS

are you saying the pay at the regionals was better BEFORE there were RJ bridge courses?

No. I stated that the benefits package doesn't impress higher timed pilots. Low time pilots are more willing to accept the low pay etc in order to get in the door. Pilots who have been around the block a few times would leave the industry before applying to a regional. Myself included.

Here is a fact for you. Given the cost of living increase for the last 20 years, newhire regional pilots today are making LESS than a newhire Be99 pilot in 1988.

Don't take my word for it:
http://www.aier.org/research/cost-of-living-calculator/

Originally Posted by MichaelCPS

So let's not try to show someone that if they go the Part 135, Cargo, 1000+ hours of dual given and THEN to the Regionals route that they are going to get better first year pay.

You assumed that someone would gain more experience and THEN go to a regional. What I implied was that after spending some quality time flying for other operators they would be less likely to even apply to a regional.

You have to ask yourself why the majority of out of work "high timed" pilots don't apply at the regional level. Then as a low timer, you should ask yourself..."what do they know that I don't?"

[Snickersnwa]

Originally Posted by smokey1

Your course is most likely not going to prevent someone from failing initial 121 training. Most of the failures are due to bad attitudes, not studying, or simply not grasping the material.

I can only speak for myself here, but I found myself having to "un-learn" the CRJ stuff for the ERJ anyway...

[WacoFan]

I have been out of town most of the week, and have just read this thread. I continue to be amazed that many here think that the primary function of Michael's life and CPS should be to "raise the bar of the profession" and that by offering something like the CRJ course he is doing the most harm to the pilot profession since deregulation. He is taking a large financial risk to offer a program for the CRJ. This program will succeed or fail based upon the demand. When the posters convince every other CRJ program to shut down, make a post and complain then. Michael's CRJ program has not diminished the profession, that ship has already sailed. I support upholding the standards of the profession - and ALPA or other unions are the most effective way to do that, not complaining about a CRJ program. The purpose of business is to make money - Michael is upholding HIS profession of "Business Owner", not yours of "Airline Pilot". So, if you can shut down all the other CRJ programs, your comments would be valid...OR, if you would somehow provide recompense for not having a CRJ course that would also be viable...but to hold someone that is not in your profession responsible for the degradation of that profession is a little far-fetched.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

So, if you can shut down all the other CRJ programs, your comments would be valid...OR, if you would somehow provide recompense for not having a CRJ course that would also be viable...but to hold someone that is not in your profession responsible for the degradation of that profession is a little far-fetched.

Huh?

As a business owner he is starting a CRJ course in the midst of large furloughs and reductions. That is like Ford announcing a new mega-SUV in the middle of rising fuel costs. How can you possibly think that a flight school is not part of the pilot profession, it is the very root. I find no fault in him for running a flight school (I did it myself), and I have never doubted them having a quality program. However, you will have to forgive us for being less than pleased to hear about another "get there quicker" program. Make the program last 2 years (800+ hrs) and maybe we will.

[Michael95U]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

However, you will have to forgive us for being less than pleased to hear about another "get there quicker" program. Make the program last 2 years (800+ hrs) and maybe we will.

Did I ever state that it is a "get there quicker" program? Does our marketing state "Seniority is everything" ?

Michael

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by MichaelCPS

Did I ever state that it is a "get there quicker" program? Does our marketing state "Seniority is everything" ?

Michael

That is the point of most of the RJ programs out there.

Do you plan on having a min TT for people to take the program, or can anyone with the money and a Cmel sign up?

[Michael95U]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

That is the point of most of the RJ programs out there.

Do you plan on having a min TT for people to take the program, or can anyone with the money and a Cmel sign up?

I would recommend this program to pilots who meet the minimum requirements at their intended airline of employment. I see no reason for a 250 hours CMEL pilot to take this course at this time. Now, if hiring goes back to the levels of the past 2 years and pilots at that amount of time are getting hired, I would accept students at that level.

Michael