CRJ Bridge Course Soon Offered at CPS

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

These are all very valid points, but I would respectfully suggest that they are irrelevent to CPS which is not in business to improve the airline pilot profession. They are in business to pay their bank, and "put food on their families" to paraphrase GWB. Having DAL Captains at pre 9-11 pay does absolutely nothing for the principals of CPS. Not saying that your points are not valid, and not true...just saying that a small business (or even a large one) needs to focus on things like revenue and expense management and not try to do things such as "improve the pilot profession" or "help raise the bar", which would be difficult to measure and have no monetary benefit to the shareholders of CPS.

Well, this shows exceptionally well where one's priorities sit.

It's unfortunate that some are ignorant to the fact that this is a profession, and one that WAS at one time respected. My wife doesn't have student teachers going out and getting some unaccredited "paper certificate" for 10 grand so that they can get hired without a BS/BA or any educational certifications.

If we as a profession continue to devalue our professional worth, we will never be able to recover the things we have lost in recent years in regards to not only pay, but QOL and benefits.

It's sad to see some are welling to short change themselves, all for an RJ course that costs 10 grand.

Being blunt in times like these are required if we - as yes professional pilots - are to improve the profession. You're right, it's not up to CPS or any other location that runs an RJ course to improve the profession. It's the job of professional pilots by spreading the word that WE do not appreciate our profession being devalued so that some school can get a couple starry-eyed kids or career changer to come in and pay 10 grand for an RJ course.

Just being honest.

To be even more honest, I was (like Ian J I think) extremely impressed with what CPS was bringing to the flight training segment. They seem(ed) to have their act together, and some integrity about the services they were provided. I've had a few people ask me directly about where I trained, and if I hadn't trained there, where I would have ended up. CPS was right there next in line. This, albeit my recommendations won't have much of an effect, just is kinda a gut check from a group of guys who I thought really understood the professional pilot segment of the industry.

[killbilly]

Respectfully, I must ask you at this point if you made the same points to Falcon while you worked there, as they also offer an RJ course.

[LoadMasterC141]

Standing on your soap box catterwalling at CPS while you attended a school that does the very same thing? Doesn't Falcon also take foreign students money so they can go home and hop in an Airbus with 250 hours?

You do not know the people at CPS outside of here do you? Have you ever actually been to CPS? Talked personally with friends that have been here? So because they have added an RJ course to their course listing you have decided it is OK to flame them publicly decreeing their moralistic deficiencies?

It is just an RJ course. They are everywhere. An FO in training with 7000 posts flaming away at a good school that has decided to keep up is not really helping things either.

The people here at CPS are genuine. Though it IS a business, I see Michael pour his heart and soul into this every day. I could list so many things here that proves everyone at CPS is truly committed to building the best pilots possible. I am actually amazed at how little money does motivate.

[surreal1221]

I did, on a few occasions.

Of course never to a customer, as well. . .they're already there and it really would not be all that professional. But I did make my thoughts known to our marketing director in casual conversation on a few occasions.

Further, it just goes to show that these are the hot item right now and eventually they'll flutter out of popularity as a number of circumstances happen, a few of them have already occurred.

Hiring slows, Supply Increases (More pilots to the market), Minimums increase as airlines can now be much more selective of the candidates they will hire, and even some of them will actually hold ATP ratings and not just a CMEL with not instructor ratings and a RJ Transition course certificate.

I'm not on a soap box guys. If every time someone tried to give their opinion about the overall negative impacts of the profession that these courses generate they were on a soap box then people are obviously going to tune out - and the message is then never received.

And Load, what's your goal in stating that I'm an FO in training with 7000 points?

I'm an FO in training (granted, with an SIC Type now) without ever having spent 10+ grand on an RJ course. Further, in less than a year from leaving the military I was employed by a 121 operator. I'd consider that pretty damn quick, it's not 90 days or whatever like ATP. . .but man. . .no RJ course, three CFI certificates, and hired by a 121 operator in less than a year from leaving his prior profession.

But hey - I'm just an FO in training with 7000+ posts.

In regards to Falcon's primary customer, yes they are international students who do indeed leave here with around 250 hours, a CMEL/SEL IA certificate. They do not go straight home and jump into an A320 though. They have upwards of 12 months of further education that is taken care of in their home country prior to even being sponsored by an airline for potential hiring. But we wouldn't want facts to get in the way.

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Well, this shows exceptionally well where one's priorities sit.

It's unfortunate that some are ignorant to the fact that this is a profession, and one that WAS at one time respected. My wife doesn't have student teachers going out and getting some unaccredited "paper certificate" for 10 grand so that they can get hired without a BS/BA or any educational certifications.

If we as a profession continue to devalue our professional worth, we will never be able to recover the things we have lost in recent years in regards to not only pay, but QOL and benefits.

It's sad to see some are welling to short change themselves, all for an RJ course that costs 10 grand.

Being blunt in times like these are required if we - as yes professional pilots - are to improve the profession. You're right, it's not up to CPS or any other location that runs an RJ course to improve the profession. It's the job of professional pilots by spreading the word that WE do not appreciate our profession being devalued so that some school can get a couple starry-eyed kids or career changer to come in and pay 10 grand for an RJ course.

Just being honest.

To be even more honest, I was (like Ian J I think) extremely impressed with what CPS was bringing to the flight training segment. They seem(ed) to have their act together, and some integrity about the services they were provided. I've had a few people ask me directly about where I trained, and if I hadn't trained there, where I would have ended up. CPS was right there next in line. This, albeit my recommendations won't have much of an effect, just is kinda a gut check from a group of guys who I thought really understood the professional pilot segment of the industry.

I agree with a great deal of this post. I just happen to believe that CPS, and peoples views of CPS, should not be affected by their addition of this course. CPS is not an airline, nor do they belong to ALPA. CPS's job begins and ends with providing flight training and giving value to their students. It is airline pilots, and ALPA's job to "raise the bar" and to effect positive change in the industry. I do know well what the profession was and what it has become. If CPS wants to add a new course to their menu of services, then that is a business decision that the market will take care of. If ALPA and the profession get the word out that this training needs to be paid for by the airlines, then CPS's program will fail, and they will eat the cost of implementing it. They bare the risk and reward. I simply do not think it is realistic to impose standards of "the industry" on a business establishment that is not in that industry. Simply put, once the pilots that are already flying the line do what they can to discourage people from taking RJ courses, then the courses will fail on their own due to market forces at work. I have chosen at this point not to get an MBA...is it Harvard's fault that somebody decided to spend $100k to get an MBA from them and took a position that I wasn't able to get because I choose not to?

[LoadMasterC141]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

I
And Load, what's your goal in stating that I'm an FO in training with 7000 points?

I'm an FO in training (granted, with an SIC Type now) without ever having spent 10+ grand on an RJ course. Further, in less than a year from leaving the military I was employed by a 121 operator. I'd consider that pretty damn quick, it's not 90 days or whatever like ATP. . .but man. . .no RJ course, three CFI certificates, and hired by a 121 operator in less than a year from leaving his prior profession.

But hey - I'm just an FO in training with 7000+ posts.

Yeah that was a personal jab for no reason. I am sorry. I feel emotional because I REALLY respect the people here at CPS and their philosophies and morals. Being so endeared, I felt under attack too.
Again, my apologies for that part, and I have never heard that foreign students have that much more training to do.

I have always respected you Surreal, but I think in this case your motivations may be a bit unfounded. It is understood that some think RJ courses degrade the industry, but is it really that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things degrading the industry right now? Is it like the Lift to Induced Drag relationship? Perhaps there is some good out of it at least....airlines don't suffer as much monetary loss due to training failures.

I dunno. I just KNOW these are good people here.

[Michael95U]

I just want to thank people on both sides of the issue chiming in on the subject of CPS offering a Regional Jet Bridge Course. Good debate is healthy. There are many topics I feel strongly about and have debated on these forums (ie the validity of safety pilot time, buying a type rating, etc). It is important to have these discussions.

Why have I decided that CPS needs to offer a Regional Jet Bridge Course? There are many, many reasons. First and foremost is the need to evolve our business. In business, you have to be constantly evolving. A Regional Jet course is the next step in the evolution of our business. Why is it the next step? We have to be competitive in the flight training market.

We believe we offer a superior aviation education to those pilots that choose to attend our school. Our students get more time in the left seat (NO safety pilot time), receive more ground instruction, and get personalized attention from experienced flight instructors. Why not offer a superior Regional Jet Course?

We are in business here to produce the best pilots in the hiring market. If a student comes to us and then has to go to one of the other major Regional Jet Programs in order to further his/her career, where does that leave us? All of our hard work preparing this student to be the best they can be goes to another flight school that gets the credit for completing the student's training, ultimately leading to a job with an airline. The hardest part for us is that we can't control the quality of the program OUR student decides to attend after they complete their program at CPS. By offering our own program, we CAN control the quality and make sure it is at it's highest level.

I appreciate that there are many airline pilots out there that are opposed to such programs. As a former corporate pilot, I am opposed to people buying their own type rating to get a corporate job. Does that mean I look down on people who choose that route? No. Whatever they need to do to further their career is what they need to do.

The fact is, in the present state of airline hiring, a Regional Jet Course puts the student at an advantage over a student who hasn't taken the course. If the AIRLINE and the STUDENT feel that a regional jet course will allow them to more easily transition to the right seat of a jet, then by all means, they should have the CHOICE of completing such a course.

The bottom line is this: it is our intention to have THE BEST Regional Jet Course on the market. We only give 110% at CPS. Why did we settle on 3 weeks? It is all about QUALITY of training. We feel that 1 week to 10 days is not enough while a three month course is too long. In three weeks we will be able to give the students a quality course where they receive personalized attention to help them realize their goal of being an airline pilot.

Not everyone can come to CPS and meet myself and my staff. If any of you ever have a chance to stop in Kansas City, come visit us. We are not like the other major flight schools and it is not our intention to become a flight training behemoth. All we intend to do is A) Care about our students, B) Offer Superior Aviation Education, and C) Help our students in any way possible during their stay with us and after the completion of their program.

Michael

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

I agree with a great deal of this post. I just happen to believe that CPS, and peoples views of CPS, should not be affected by their addition of this course. CPS is not an airline, nor do they belong to ALPA. CPS's job begins and ends with providing flight training and giving value to their students. It is airline pilots, and ALPA's job to "raise the bar" and to effect positive change in the industry. I do know well what the profession was and what it has become. If CPS wants to add a new course to their menu of services, then that is a business decision that the market will take care of. If ALPA and the profession get the word out that this training needs to be paid for by the airlines, then CPS's program will fail, and they will eat the cost of implementing it. They bare the risk and reward. I simply do not think it is realistic to impose standards of "the industry" on a business establishment that is not in that industry. Simply put, once the pilots that are already flying the line do what they can to discourage people from taking RJ courses, then the courses will fail on their own due to market forces at work. I have chosen at this point not to get an MBA...is it Harvard's fault that somebody decided to spend $100k to get an MBA from them and took a position that I wasn't able to get because I choose not to?

Agreed, I don't think I once attacked CPS for offering this course. I think I mentioned just this, that it is yes - up to those of us in the profession to raise the bar. Unfortunately, we will continue to have a much harder time of raising that bar by the increasing number of these types of programs in existence.

The regionals are not the end all be all for some of us, then again, some of us plan on making it a career at a regional and want to be compensated well for sticking it out at one company for their whole career. RJ courses make it much harder for those who work hard night and day to bring a better QOL, benefits, work rules, and pay to a company to accomplish their goal.

I'm merely trying state the negative aspects of these courses that exist for the profession, that's all.

Originally Posted by LoadMasterC141

Yeah that was a personal jab for no reason. I am sorry. I feel emotional because I REALLY respect the people here at CPS and their philosophies and morals. Being so endeared, I felt under attack too.
Again, my apologies for that part, and I have never heard that foreign students have that much more training to do.

I have always respected you Surreal, but I think in this case your motivations may be a bit unfounded. It is understood that some think RJ courses degrade the industry, but is it really that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things degrading the industry right now? Is it like the Lift to Induced Drag relationship? Perhaps there is some good out of it at least....airlines don't suffer as much monetary loss due to training failures.

I dunno. I just KNOW these are good people here.

I'm sure they are great people too, I'd love to meet the whole lot of the guys (gals as well?) one day. I think I also indicated that I have been extremely impressed with the type, structure, and from what I hear - the quality of training that CPS provides.

These posts in regards to RJ courses are not 100% directed right at CPS, but rather toward the overall environment that these courses exist in.

I honestly feel, deep down in my heart, that CPS should continue to excel in their market. Providing qualify, cost effective, flight training to those seeking it.

Hopefully that clears up any confusion.

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Agreed, I don't think I once attacked CPS for offering this course. I think I mentioned just this, that it is yes - up to those of us in the profession to raise the bar. Unfortunately, we will continue to have a much harder time of raising that bar by the increasing number of these types of programs in existence.

The regionals are not the end all be all for some of us, then again, some of us plan on making it a career at a regional and want to be compensated well for sticking it out at one company for their whole career. RJ courses make it much harder for those who work hard night and day to bring a better QOL, benefits, work rules, and pay to a company to accomplish their goal.

I'm merely trying state the negative aspects of these courses that exist for the profession, that's all.

.

Given that your statement is an EXCELLENT goal - to raise the bar with the Regionals - let me ask you this.

Could the prevalence of RJ courses actually give the union an opportunity to "raise the bar"? I know it sounds weird, but if there is a notable drop in the number of training failures that has to lower the overall training costs to the company. If the training costs are lowered, that impacts the bottom line in a positive way which would certainly help in negotiations. The pilot group could cite the lower amounts spent on training, and perhaps use this as a tool to demand more pay. Is this a realistic idea, or is it stupid? I am ignorant of the cost of training and its impact on the bottom line of a regional. I would imagine an airline like Mesa, with huge turnover, training cost would represent a significant number...not sure with other airlines though.

[surreal1221]

I'm sure the union could spin it that way, but unfortuantely in the eyes of management (the majority of them at least), these courses offer them a group of candidates that traditionally they would not have been able to reach until they had closer to 500-1500 hours TT.

So with that being said, it'll never turn around into "our" favor as the profession - at least in regard to using the courses as a token to raise benefits, QOL, pay.

I personally feel these courses became popular simply because of the lack of adequate supplies for the demand that was occurring. Massive hiring starting the winter of 2006, continued through all of 2007, and has significantly slowed down since January of this year.

Because of the massive hiring, and supply being significant below available levels, these courses gained their popularity to both the airlines and the businesses that operate them.

At least that's my take.

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

I'm sure the union could spin it that way, but unfortuantely in the eyes of management (the majority of them at least), these courses offer them a group of candidates that traditionally they would not have been able to reach until they had closer to 500-1500 hours TT.

So with that being said, it'll never turn around into "our" favor as the profession - at least in regard to using the courses as a token to raise benefits, QOL, pay.

I personally feel these courses became popular simply because of the lack of adequate supplies for the demand that was occurring. Massive hiring starting the winter of 2006, continued through all of 2007, and has significantly slowed down since January of this year.

Because of the massive hiring, and supply being significant below available levels, these courses gained their popularity to both the airlines and the businesses that operate them.

At least that's my take.

Thank you for the reply. I guess my concern, because I met these guys once and like them, is not that they are offering a RJ course, but the timing. As you said in your post, the slowing of hiring, and qualified pilots on the street could make RJ courses for low-time guys an obsolete concept. That concerns me.

[Michael95U]

Our first RJ class will start on July 7th. We have had a lot of great inquiries, so if you are interested, sign up ASAP as space is tight.

On another note, we attended the Fltops.com career fair in Las Vegas with great results. There were a lot of airlines attending who were still hiring a good number of pilots. It is very helpful talking directly to the top recruiters at each airline.

Michael

[Michael95U]

We are now able to include 3 weeks of housing in the cost of the program. (Housing is 1 studio apartment per student; each room has a full sized fridge, small oven/stovetop, microwave, desk, tv).

Michael

[Douglas H]

Michael:

I have developed a great deal of respect for your integrity and zeal for quality aviation education.

I am concerned though about the "need" for any flight school to provide a RJ transition course.

If you need a prep course to be able to pass an initial new hire training program, you don't belong on the flight deck of a Part 121 air carrier.

The best prep course is the full time job in Part 135 prior to joining the Part 121 world.

As a EMB145 Captain and former freight pilot, I can tell which FO's have flown Part 135 or Part 121 in their prior jobs and those who have not without even asking.

[Michael95U]

Originally Posted by Douglas H

Michael:

I have developed a great deal of respect for your integrity and zeal for quality aviation education.

I am concerned though about the "need" for any flight school to provide a RJ transition course.

If you need a prep course to be able to pass an initial new hire training program, you don't belong on the flight deck of a Part 121 air carrier.

The best prep course is the full time job in Part 135 prior to joining the Part 121 world.

As a EMB145 Captain and former freight pilot, I can tell which FO's have flown Part 135 or Part 121 in their prior jobs and those who have not without even asking.

Douglas:

I understand where you are coming from. What I am trying to do is offer a QUALITY course that is affordable. I had a choice here at CPS: either offer students a good RJ program or see them leave for other flight schools with such a program. It makes more sense to offer our students this program and let them choose if they want to do it or not. This is not a quickie one week course we have put together. Our focus will continue to be on quality and one-on-one instruction.

Michael

[Michael95U]

Originally Posted by Douglas H

I can tell which FO's have flown Part 135 or Part 121 in their prior jobs and those who have not without even asking.

The problem I have seen with 135 jobs and new pilots is that most require 1200 hours. Some will hire at 500, but those are few and far between. And I have personal experience in this matter as A) I have flown 135 and B) I own a Part 135 Charter Company.

When I came through the ranks, the progression was flight instruction, Part 135, and then either Part 121, Corporate, or staying in Part 135. I think that progression is noble and gives pilots excellent experience, but there are a lot of people who don't want to go that route. If a student comes to me and wants that route, great! I will help them attain their goal. If a student comes to me and they want to go a route that might get them to a Part 121 job faster, great! I will help them just the same. I just want CPS to be known for quality instruction and the ability to help students get to wherever they want to go, be it instruction, 135, 121, 91K, etc etc.

Michael

[Douglas H]

Michael:

Everyone wants to be able to take shortcuts to the Part 121 jobs.

When it comes to my family riding on your airliner, I don't want shortcuts on the flightdeck.

I want someone to be very experienced in PIC decisions, hard IMC weather, and have seen some TMAAT events prior to sitting in a Part 121 slot. Being a CFI and flying charter as an SIC and eventually as a PIC help prepare you for that future airline job.

New hires are really considered to be captains in training, not students.

Assuming you will be offering this course, who are your instructors going to be and what are their backgrounds? I would hope that they are very experienced as Part 121 captains in turbojet aircraft at a respected regional or mainline carrier.

With the proper experience and aptitude prior to an initial hire class, a bridge or transition course is not needed to be successful in training or on the line.

My company's hiring needs has slowed to a trickle. I hope we go back to a higher flight time minimums (1500/300) we had just two years ago. It will help with the higher washout rate both at initial hire and upgrade with the lower time candidates and a captain's frustration with teaching an FO things they should have mastered prior to sitting in the right seat.

You see lost revenue if you don't do this course. I see unnecessary expense that could be better spent renting and flying a light twin cross country to gain the PIC background that will help them be a better pilot in the long run.

It takes real piloting experience to make you a proficient pilot, not studying soon to be retired CRJ200 systems and a flying a Level D simulator for a few weeks.

[Michael95U]

Originally Posted by Douglas H

You see lost revenue if you don't do this course.

I don't just see lost revenue. If people are going to do these courses regardless of what Part 121 captains say, I see a real need to make sure there is a quality course on the market. Right now, you have a choice between a 3 month program, a week program, and a couple of other 2-3 week programs. I can's speak to the quality of any of these programs, but I can say that the President and Owner of Career Pilot School is at the school 6-7 days a week to ensure consistent, quality education. I am not sure any of the other schools can claim that statement. I will stand by our program and I think once it is up and running, students will really enjoy the experience and feel that it gave them a leg up (NOT a shortcut).

We try to do things differently at CPS. No safety pilot time is one big things that sets us apart from the rest (really, what else does safety pilot time on cross country flights do in the long run but pad logbooks?). We also provide one-on-one instruction with experienced flight instructors. These things aren't going to change when we start our RJ Bridge course. Hopefully those very things will set us apart from the rest of the RJ courses.

Michael

[Michael95U]

The first class date for the RJ Course will be August 11th.

Michael

[cfii2007]

Originally Posted by MichaelCPS

I just want to thank people on both sides of the issue chiming in on the subject of CPS offering a Regional Jet Bridge Course. Good debate is healthy. There are many topics I feel strongly about and have debated on these forums (ie the validity of safety pilot time, buying a type rating, etc). It is important to have these discussions.

Why have I decided that CPS needs to offer a Regional Jet Bridge Course? There are many, many reasons. First and foremost is the need to evolve our business. In business, you have to be constantly evolving. A Regional Jet course is the next step in the evolution of our business. Why is it the next step? We have to be competitive in the flight training market.

We believe we offer a superior aviation education to those pilots that choose to attend our school. Our students get more time in the left seat (NO safety pilot time), receive more ground instruction, and get personalized attention from experienced flight instructors. Why not offer a superior Regional Jet Course?

We are in business here to produce the best pilots in the hiring market. If a student comes to us and then has to go to one of the other major Regional Jet Programs in order to further his/her career, where does that leave us? All of our hard work preparing this student to be the best they can be goes to another flight school that gets the credit for completing the student's training, ultimately leading to a job with an airline. The hardest part for us is that we can't control the quality of the program OUR student decides to attend after they complete their program at CPS. By offering our own program, we CAN control the quality and make sure it is at it's highest level.

I appreciate that there are many airline pilots out there that are opposed to such programs. As a former corporate pilot, I am opposed to people buying their own type rating to get a corporate job. Does that mean I look down on people who choose that route? No. Whatever they need to do to further their career is what they need to do.

The fact is, in the present state of airline hiring, a Regional Jet Course puts the student at an advantage over a student who hasn't taken the course. If the AIRLINE and the STUDENT feel that a regional jet course will allow them to more easily transition to the right seat of a jet, then by all means, they should have the CHOICE of completing such a course.

The bottom line is this: it is our intention to have THE BEST Regional Jet Course on the market. We only give 110% at CPS. Why did we settle on 3 weeks? It is all about QUALITY of training. We feel that 1 week to 10 days is not enough while a three month course is too long. In three weeks we will be able to give the students a quality course where they receive personalized attention to help them realize their goal of being an airline pilot.

Not everyone can come to CPS and meet myself and my staff. If any of you ever have a chance to stop in Kansas City, come visit us. We are not like the other major flight schools and it is not our intention to become a flight training behemoth. All we intend to do is A) Care about our students, B) Offer Superior Aviation Education, and C) Help our students in any way possible during their stay with us and after the completion of their program.

Michael

If they are both standing in the unemployment line.....I doubt it will make a difference, except one being $10,000 light in the wallet versus the other.

[Michael95U]

Originally Posted by cfii2007

If they are both standing in the unemployment line.....I doubt it will make a difference, except one being $10,000 light in the wallet versus the other.

Thank you for the productive post.

[Michael95U]

Our CRJ device will be here on Sunday. I will be posting pictures of the construction all next week. Check back on Monday for the first installment!

Michael