What locations would you advise on not going to

[badbudda]

Can any of the retired or current ATC folks comment on what facility or location NOT to go to due to one reason or another?

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by badbudda

Can any of the retired or current ATC folks comment on what facility or location NOT to go to due to one reason or another?

The smart A&$ in me says, anywhere the FFA has a facility.

In all honesty;

1. Most ARTCC's are falling apart and offer you some serious health problems.
2. NY area Center's and Terminal facilities are extremely expensive. As well as a good # of California facilities and facilities around major metropolitan areas. New hire money stinks.
3. Good idea to start at a mid-level facility. Gives you a good foundation to build your entire career on. IE. DAB, SAV, ROA, RDU, ORF. Go on here and look a mid-level facilities - http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/..._Fact_Book.pdf
4. Any extremely busy facilities. See above. If you fail at the busiest facilities, the FFA does not care how much you spent trying to become a controller. YOU ARE FIRED.

[Brooklyn]

ATLTRACON- You are at a level 12 facility, so why do you discourage against going to a busy facility? Do you think that training periods would be hindered due to the amount of traffic at a facility like yours, or are you only discouraging applicants with no prior aviation experience to go to a lower level facility, because it may be easier?

[Trident]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn

ATLTRACON- You are at a level 12 facility, so why do you discourage against going to a busy facility? Do you think that training periods would be hindered due to the amount of traffic at a facility like yours, or are you only discouraging applicants with no prior aviation experience to go to a lower level facility, because it may be easier?

Actually ATL TRACON is a level 14 facility, with staffing levels of a 10 or 11. With the amount of aircraft that A80 deals with, your training time will most likely be longer than that of a lower level.

[ATC RET 2003]

I've been out of the game for five years so I can't speak in specific terms about any location... not even the ones I've been to (facilities, that is).

Generally speaking, though, don't go anywhere that you wouldn't enjoy living.

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn

ATLTRACON- You are at a level 12 facility, so why do you discourage against going to a busy facility? Do you think that training periods would be hindered due to the amount of traffic at a facility like yours, or are you only discouraging applicants with no prior aviation experience to go to a lower level facility, because it may be easier?

It doesn't matter what kind of "past experience" you have. We have had people with military time, lots of military time wash out, contract tower people wash out and CTI/no experience wash out.
How do you expect to check out when you've never learned how to be a level 12 controller first. It's like giving a child, who has never ridden a bike before, a Harley Fat Boy. It is a tried and true method to send new hires to either ATRCC's (good training set-up) or mid-level facilities (RDU, SAV, etc.)

[bigl228]

What I don't understand is why so many people are worried about what level facility they go to when what matters is getting the job and becoming good at it. That is when you should worry about what level you're at and that is when the money should become an issue, not coming in working at a level 11 or 12. Just remember you gotta crawl before you walk.

[Brooklyn]

I completely agree with you. I live in New York and I could of easily put New York as one of my geo pref, but I didnt! I am more concerned with being able to be trained. I picked my geo pref before I even knew what facility level they were. As you all may have noticed I thought ATL was level 12, and its really level 14! LOL I just want the opportunity to do a great job..........

[TBarry253]

Originally Posted by ATLTRACON

It doesn't matter what kind of "past experience" you have. We have had people with military time, lots of military time wash out, contract tower people wash out and CTI/no experience wash out.
How do you expect to check out when you've never learned how to be a level 12 controller first. It's like giving a child, who has never ridden a bike before, a Harley Fat Boy. It is a tried and true method to send new hires to either ATRCC's (good training set-up) or mid-level facilities (RDU, SAV, etc.)

What are some facilites that have good training set up? Or just being sent to an ARTCC is a good idea?

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn

I completely agree with you. I live in New York and I could of easily put New York as one of my geo pref, but I didnt! I am more concerned with being able to be trained. I picked my geo pref before I even knew what facility level they were. As you all may have noticed I thought ATL was level 12, and its really level 14! LOL I just want the opportunity to do a great job..........

We have been running numbers for years at the Level 14 rate, paid at a level 12 rate and staffed at a level 10.

read:
NATIONAL AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS ASSOCIATION (NATCA)
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
May 6, 2008
CONTACTS: Atlanta TRACON Facility Representative, Daniel Ellenberger, (678) 464-7169; NATCA National Office, Alexandra Caldwell, 202-220-9813, acaldwell@natcadc.org
LOW STAFFING, HIGH OT CAUSES SPIKE IN UNSAFE INCIDENTS IN SKIES AROUND WORLD'S BUSIEST AIRPORT
ATLANTA – The number of incidents when planes have gotten too close has already exceeded last fiscal year's total at the major radar facility handling flights into and out of the world's busiest airport – and the situation is getting worse.
Within two years 30 percent of the veteran controller workforce at Atlanta TRACON (Terminal Radar Approach Control) could retire, leaving behind only 46 CPCs (Certified Professional Controllers) when, according to the FAA's own staffing range – a gross underestimation of what is needed – the facility should have at least 80 to 88 controllers.
There are six veteran controllers at Atlanta TRACON that are currently eligible to retire – in addition to one other that will reach his/her mandatory retirement date on June 1st. Five more will be eligible by the end of 2008 and eight additional will reach eligibility in 2009.
Said NATCA President Patrick Forrey: "Atlanta TRACON is yet another example of the FAA's inability to plan for the future. Their recklessness towards the safety of the flying public and their morale-breaking treatment of the controller workforce is disturbing – but not at all surprising. Controllers have been working under imposed work rules for 20 months now, and the FAA has yet to realize or attempt to remedy the devastating effects that this controller attrition has and will play on the safety of the flying public."
The facility currently has 66 CPCs; not including one who has been out for at least a year on worker's comp and is not expected back. A total of eleven have retired since the imposed work rules – all leaving before their mandatory retirement date.
Of the facility's 23 trainees, 14 have no prior FAA experience and of those 23 trainees, six have not been certified on any positions and eleven have only been certified on one. The entire staff of veteran controllers is being forced to work mandatory overtime and has been for nearly two years, even though nearly 90 percent have informed the FAA that they do not want overtime. In the 2007 Fiscal Year alone the FAA spent $1.9 million on overtime at Atlanta TRACON.
Ten of the facility's new hires have already been training for more than one year and are certified on one position at the most. Atlanta TRACON has never had a trainee with no prior experience reach full certification – but were it to happen now, based on the current certification rate for those currently in training, it would take three (the best case scenario) to five years (the worst case).
Operational errors (OEs), a mistake resulting in aircraft coming closer to one another than FAA rules allow, are up at the facility. There were 22 OEs in Fiscal Year 2006. In Fiscal Year 2007 the FAA reclassified operational errors by renaming 'D' category OEs proximity events (PEs) – while technically still an operational error this allows the FAA to report that operational errors are down. Including PEs, there were 29 OEs in Fiscal Year 2007 and 40 so far this year.
"The facility has lost and will continue to lose countless years of experience when these veteran controllers retire and leave behind a novice workforce," said Atlanta TRACON Facility Representative Daniel Ellenberger. "In an occupation where experience means everything it's merely a waiting game for disaster to strike."

###

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by TBarry253

What are some facilites that have good training set up? Or just being sent to an ARTCC is a good idea?

Look at the link in my above post. Oh, never mind here it is again... http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/..._Fact_Book.pdf

All ARTCC's should have a good set up. Some have a huge wait once you get there as CTI's/New hires are stacked up like cord-wood waiting to train. Some of these kids, one I know personally, has been waiting for over 2 years at ZTL ARTCC (Atlanta Center) and is just now finally getting to the floor to start his D-side training (radar man's helper).

A mid-level up/down tower-TRACON, RDU, GSO, SAV...these types of places are a great place to learn the ins and outs of not just ATC but your new employer. Check out the above link, look for non-ARTCC's in the 26-50 range for towers as well as the 26-50 range for apch controls. Good starting points.

I hear Guam is nice this time of year

[TBarry253]

Ok great, thanks. Do you know if it's difficult to transfer from a mid level facility to a high level facility?

[ATLTRACON]

Used to be easier, but the hard to staff-higher level facilities have no problem stealing from lower level places.

[PilotTurnedATC]

Anyone have any thoughts on facilities around Boston???

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by PilotTurnedATC

Anyone have any thoughts on facilities around Boston???

I have worked both at ZBW (actually in New Hampshire..my home state) and at A90, before it moved to Merrimack, New Hampshire. New Hampshire has become quite expensive to live, what with there donor town/receiver town tax crap. My in-laws pay over 15k a year in property tax and I was paying 5k+ a year back in '90.

Taxachusetts is another expensive place to live, for the most part, but you do have the Red Sox. BED may be a good facility to start out in as it is not too bust, but has a good mix of corporate, sometimes military itinerant, flight schools, etc. Cape approach may be another good starting point...bust in the summer and much slower in the winter. PVD approach as well.

[RobertB]

Originally Posted by ATLTRACON

Of the facility's 23 trainees, 14 have no prior FAA experience and of those 23 trainees, six have not been certified on any positions and eleven have only been certified on one.

Ten of the facility's new hires have already been training for more than one year and are certified on one position at the most. Atlanta TRACON has never had a trainee with no prior experience reach full certification – but were it to happen now, based on the current certification rate for those currently in training, it would take three (the best case scenario) to five years (the worst case).

So what was the point of hiring the 14 applicants with no prior FAA experience if thus far no one with the same qualifications has reached full certification? Either the people hired with no prior experience should have never been put at the ATL TRACON or another large TRACON to begin with or the training they receive in OKC or at the facility is lagging...

I find it hard to believe that the 'ATL TRACON has never had a trainee with no prior experience reach full certification.' It must be since it moved to Peachtree City because I know of a few that were fully certified with no prior experience when it was at Hartsfield... So it could just be NATCA exaggerating.

[TBarry253]

Any thoughts on locations in the mid-atlantic area? Specifically Pennsylvania/Maryland area?

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by RobertB

So what was the point This is the way of the FFAA of hiring the 14 applicants with no prior FAA experience if thus far no one with the same qualifications has reached full certification? Either the people hired with no prior experience should have never been put at the ATL TRACON Exactly, but it's happening EVERYWHERE or another large TRACON to begin with or the training they receive in OKC or at the facility is lagging...Ya Think

I find it hard to believe that the 'ATL TRACON has never had a trainee with no prior experience reach full certification.' It must be since it moved to Peachtree City because I know of a few that were fully certified with no prior experience We have never had no experience at all trainees allowed to come to ATL TRACON before this fiasco started. We have always only ever taken folks from the likes of CLT, PIT, CVG, MCO, etc. Other level 5's (old way of classification) or high level 4's IE GSO, RDU, etc. when it was at Hartsfield... So it could just be NATCA exaggerating.

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by TBarry253

Any thoughts on locations in the mid-atlantic area? Specifically Pennsylvania/Maryland area?

If I had my druthers (weird old person word) I would go to MDT. Good mid-level facility, excellent area to live, not too expensive and they are short staffed.

[flyguy63]

Originally Posted by ATLTRACON

If I had my druthers (weird old person word) I would go to MDT. Good mid-level facility, excellent area to live, not too expensive and they are short staffed.

You think it will be quicker to check out at a facility that is short staffed?

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by flyguy63

You think it will be quicker to check out at a facility that is short staffed?

Why? It's not about the amount of people left, it's about how difficult the traffic is.