Uncontrolled field IFR question

BobDDuck · January 15th, 2008, 01:17

Here's the situation...

Heading into AVL tonight, we were slowed down to 250 about 60 miles from the airport because we were going to be number 2 and tower had closed. Number one was a Freedom 145 who eventually said they had the field in sight (it was clear and a million) and were cleared for a visual approach into Asheville. Atlanta then told us to keep heading towards the field as they expected a cancellation from Freedom as soon as the touched down. From where we were we could clearly see both the airport and the 145 flying a left traffic pattern into the airport.

(and by the way... Freedom, when you call up on CTAF and say you are flying a "tight left downwind" and then call up that you are "short final" you'd better be closer then 7 miles from the runway next time)

We were still stuck at 8000 feet and only about 10 miles from the airport so I asked center if we could head south on an instrument downwind until Freedom canceled and we could start the approach. He then asked if we had the other plane in sight (which we did) and then told us to maintain visual separation and that we were cleared for a visual approach and to report canceling IFR with him or FSS.

Here's my question... How can he do that? He had to IFR airplanes heading into a uncontrolled field, both still on IFR flight plans. I'm assuming the burden of responsibility is lifted off him and on to us as soon as we accepted the "maintain visual separation" clearance. But ether way, I didn't know it was possible to do that.

Cptnchia · January 15th, 2008, 09:40

As soon as you say you have the aircraft in sight, YOU are responsible for maintaining the required separation. ATC can still issue you instructions, but your eyeball is supposed to be more accurate than their radar.

dc3flyer · January 15th, 2008, 09:50

Could you not have cancelled IFR yourself since you had the field and the traffic in sight?

mtsu_av8er · January 15th, 2008, 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

Could you not have cancelled IFR yourself since you had the field and the traffic in sight?

I'm not sure about his airline, but not at mine.

OldTownPilot · January 15th, 2008, 10:30

By the FAR yes he could cancel, however there are very few part 121 carriers that allow VFR operations by their FOM. Colgan is one of them.

BobDDuck · January 15th, 2008, 11:29

We can cancel IFR as long as we can maintain VFR and provide terrain seperation AND maintain radio contact with an FAA approved radio source (read: ops). However, at night, in the mountains, in a 121 environment, it's probably not the greatest idea.

And I know that the responsibility was on us to avoid the other airplane, I just didn't know you could have two IFR airplanes cleared for an approach at the same time.

wheelsup · January 15th, 2008, 12:29

News to me too.

Omdahl · January 15th, 2008, 12:58

Here's what I got from the 7110.65

c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when:
1. The aircraft is number one in the approach
sequence, or
2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft
and the pilot reports the preceding aircraft in sight and
is instructed to follow it.
3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight
but not the preceding aircraft. Radar separation must
be maintained until visual separation is provided.

BobDDuck · January 16th, 2008, 23:28

But does 7110.65 apply to an uncontrolled field with IFR aircraft?

January 15th, 2008, 01:17	#1
BobDDuck Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Left Seat Posts: 5,305	Uncontrolled field IFR question Here's the situation... Heading into AVL tonight, we were slowed down to 250 about 60 miles from the airport because we were going to be number 2 and tower had closed. Number one was a Freedom 145 who eventually said they had the field in sight (it was clear and a million) and were cleared for a visual approach into Asheville. Atlanta then told us to keep heading towards the field as they expected a cancellation from Freedom as soon as the touched down. From where we were we could clearly see both the airport and the 145 flying a left traffic pattern into the airport. (and by the way... Freedom, when you call up on CTAF and say you are flying a "tight left downwind" and then call up that you are "short final" you'd better be closer then 7 miles from the runway next time) We were still stuck at 8000 feet and only about 10 miles from the airport so I asked center if we could head south on an instrument downwind until Freedom canceled and we could start the approach. He then asked if we had the other plane in sight (which we did) and then told us to maintain visual separation and that we were cleared for a visual approach and to report canceling IFR with him or FSS. Here's my question... How can he do that? He had to IFR airplanes heading into a uncontrolled field, both still on IFR flight plans. I'm assuming the burden of responsibility is lifted off him and on to us as soon as we accepted the "maintain visual separation" clearance. But ether way, I didn't know it was possible to do that. __________________ TBJC08 The Gear Monkey The Gear Monkey Store

January 15th, 2008, 09:40	#2
Cptnchia Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Southern Mecca Posts: 604	Re: Uncontrolled field IFR question As soon as you say you have the aircraft in sight, YOU are responsible for maintaining the required separation. ATC can still issue you instructions, but your eyeball is supposed to be more accurate than their radar. __________________ Cptnchia ATL767B

January 15th, 2008, 09:50	#3
dc3flyer Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Everywhere Posts: 1,107	Re: Uncontrolled field IFR question Could you not have cancelled IFR yourself since you had the field and the traffic in sight? __________________ Paid to wait.... Fly for fun!

January 15th, 2008, 10:30	#5
OldTownPilot Old Skool Join Date: May 2005 Location: BGR (Bangor, ME) Posts: 2,860 Blog Entries: 4	Re: Uncontrolled field IFR question By the FAR yes he could cancel, however there are very few part 121 carriers that allow VFR operations by their FOM. Colgan is one of them. __________________ As a wise man said, sumb!tch flew in, sumb!tch'll fly out. Ski Hard. Party Harder.

January 15th, 2008, 11:29	#6
BobDDuck Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Left Seat Posts: 5,305	Re: Uncontrolled field IFR question We can cancel IFR as long as we can maintain VFR and provide terrain seperation AND maintain radio contact with an FAA approved radio source (read: ops). However, at night, in the mountains, in a 121 environment, it's probably not the greatest idea. And I know that the responsibility was on us to avoid the other airplane, I just didn't know you could have two IFR airplanes cleared for an approach at the same time. __________________ TBJC08 The Gear Monkey The Gear Monkey Store

January 15th, 2008, 12:29	#7
wheelsup Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: _ Posts: 5,163	Re: Uncontrolled field IFR question News to me too. __________________ "It takes just as much time to be nice to someone as it does to be a jerk."

January 15th, 2008, 12:58	#8
Omdahl Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 81	Re: Uncontrolled field IFR question Here's what I got from the 7110.65 c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when: 1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or 2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it. 3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual separation is provided.

January 16th, 2008, 23:28	#9
BobDDuck Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Left Seat Posts: 5,305	Re: Uncontrolled field IFR question But does 7110.65 apply to an uncontrolled field with IFR aircraft? __________________ TBJC08 The Gear Monkey The Gear Monkey Store

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