ATC Starting Salary

[Polarbear]

Anyone who went the CTI route and complains about pay/work rules has about as much respect from me as a person who PFTs for a pilot job and then complains about the same. You paid your money and now your upset your guaranteed job is no longer there or isn't what you expected. *Insert crying baby sound* Meanwhile, had you actually spoken with those in the industry, they would have filled you in on all the info you needed so you wouldn't make the mistake of the CTI route.

Active and retiring controllers (that I knew) knew from many years back that OTS would be back and be back soon. How you ask? They all were approaching retirement age. They knew CTI and VRA wouldn't be able to pump out that many controllers.

They also probably would have reminded you of the history of the profession: PATCO. If you think it is so bad now, go back in history to the end of the PATCO era. Enough said on this subject, PM me if you need a history lesson.

Granted the CTI program is an awesome way to go, it is not for sore losers and gamblers. Anyone who did it before last year knew the whole thing was a gamble from the start (if you had done your research). The only ones who were lied to by the FAA were the ones hired who were froze at their pay levels short of CPC. The rest were lied to by your schools, maybe next time you'll do research outside of school.

I personally shy'd away from it since:

A. My father was a controller during the PATCO days and set me straight on what could happen if you spend money to work only for the government. Plain and simple: Spend money on a career that has other options, not just one.

B. At the time your time limit was 2 years and your out. 1998-2004 had barely anyone getting hired. My ROTC Sargent in highscool had a daughter who was coming out of the military that couldn't get on with the FAA as a controller. Just because I paid the money I was going to get in?

The government won't raise pay just because they can't get enough people, they'll just lower the bar. If you really want a career you need to get in it and make changes, not stay away and be bitter.

As history repeats itself, things will get better. Just needs people with constructive ideas instead of bitter complainers.

One last thing before I get off my soap box here:

I do not mean to attack you Surreal, but I hope in 10,20, or 30 years from now you won't be in the same position as my father......regretting the mistake of giving up something he really enjoyed for the pettiness of politics.

[Fox Xray]

Polarbear... while I agree with some of your points it's hard to compare things now to years ago in ATC, while the politics of the job are the same much else has stayed the same.

While it is true that many of today's senior controllers were hired "off the street" they were the very few who made it to certification. Following the PATCO strike the FAA hired people like crazy. First was the screen in OKC where many failed. Those that passed were then sent on to some of the busiest facilities in the country where very few made it. Look at the traffic counts back in the 80's and early 90's compared to today... it's no comparison. The facility I presently work at averages 10,000 ops per day, the recent (last year or so) batch of new hires off the street are not doing well... they are failing out at an alarming rate. Getting hire off the street with no aviation knowledge and going straight to a FAA level 12 center or tracon is a recipe for failure... there is too much to learn and too little time given to learn it.

Even back when I trained things were different. As a trainee you received a lot of "unofficial" time learning the ropes. You sat and worked during slow times, worked the sectors all night on the mid shift before official training began. This gave you a good grip on the basics before training on the heavy traffic. That does not exist anymore, people come to the facility and are sent straight to the sim lab (pass/fail) for dysim training. If they pass they are sent to the floor for OJT where they have a set amount of hours that are tracked very closely.

This is the very reason the CTI program was formed. It was the opinion of the agency that if people entered into the job with a good base of knowledge about ATC then they would have a higher retention rate. I don't have any exact data but from what I have seen with my own eyes the CTI students for the most part were much better prepared. Unfortunately in our capitalistic society many of the CTI schools padded the CTI program with classes to extract the optimum amount of money from the student. The FAA only required two core ATC classes and one weather based class for CTI certification. All these fancy labs and stuff many CTI schools offer may be fun but they do not teach you how to work airplanes... only sitting and getting real OJTI will someone learn that.

I think many of the CTI students got the shaft from the FAA ... the very people that were involved with the present IWR's were the very same folks who went ot the CTI schools and waved these large pay scales in front of the students to sign them up.

[skydog]

Now is a hell of a time to ask. The time to ask these questions was before you enrolled or paid your tuition bill.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by skydog

Now is a hell of a time to ask. The time to ask these questions was before you enrolled or paid your tuition bill.

And you think people didn't ask questions?

CTI students ask a hell of a lot of the FAA, and even asked a great deal from NATCA.

At my time as a CTI student NATCA and the FAA were negotiating, in a fair and equitable manner, for a new contract. NATCA fought long and hard to maintain the status quo for any future controllers. The FAA got tired of it, and just imposed their "non"-tract.

Perhaps now you'll realize that it doesn't matter who, or how many, or what the questions are, if you are lied to it doesn't matter what the answers are - much less what the questions were.

I applauded NATCA as a CTI student for their hard work. I will to this day remain an associate member of NATCA. Whether the latest group of OTS hires know it, but NATCA is fighting for you as well, say thanks every once in a while - and get on the right side of the team too.

[Polarbear]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

At my time as a CTI student NATCA and the FAA were negotiating, in a fair and equitable manner, for a new contract. NATCA fought long and hard to maintain the status quo for any future controllers. The FAA got tired of it, and just imposed their "non"-tract.

And you don't think the government has done that before to it's controllers?

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by skydog

Now is a hell of a time to ask. The time to ask these questions was before you enrolled or paid your tuition bill.

Don't forget that it's only the last 1-2 years that people have been hired into the FAA ATC off the street. Since the early to mid 90's the there was only three ways to get hired, ex military, the MARC school, and CTI.

I don't know a lot about CTI but I can tell you that much of the expense of the program is the fault of the schools offering it. They turned it into a cash cow and many recruiters at these schools made ridiculous promises.

A controller I worked with years ago wife was on the FAA CTI team, I remember that the intention of the program was to offer a few classes to students enrolled in the "professional pilot" programs offered by many aviation colleges to give them a shot at ATC. The intent of the agency was to recruit these students.

From where I sit, the inside looking out, many students were misled by the FAA.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Polarbear

And you don't think the government has done that before to it's controllers?

And you say that as if it that's an acceptable practice.

I on the other hand do not agree with such a statement. I'll stand up along side my fellow employee in any industry that has to work under an employer that thinks they can run right over us.

Please don't try to make an argument towards this being an acceptable practice.

[Polarbear]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

And you say that as if it that's an acceptable practice.

I on the other hand do not agree with such a statement. I'll stand up along side my fellow employee in any industry that has to work under an employer that thinks they can run right over us.

Please don't try to make an argument towards this being an acceptable practice.

I am not saying it's acceptable. I'm pointing out that you in fact you did not do your research. History repeats itself. If someone or something breaks it's word, They (it) will do it again.

Now, with that said, working for a government agency is working for an employer who will always go back on their word. Not because they are liars, but because our government is a republic. Our leaders change and change often. With that, the rules change and change often. What one administration does another can take back. Sometimes its for the good, sometimes its for the bad.

You know what? I like it that way. When something bad gets put in place, it can get changed. Unfortunately the good can be taken away too.No one and nothing is perfect, but I would love for you to point out a government better than the US Government.

[surreal1221]

Look man.

You can keep being a dick and telling me that I didn't do my research, or you can back off a little bit.

Up to you.

I did my research, you don't know me and you've never stepped a foot in my life. So just keep your assumptions about my "research or lack thereof" in your little bag of tricks.

It doesn't work. More over, you're telling me things about working for a government agency that I already know about. But, you wouldn't know this because you don't know me from Adam.

If you'd like to have a civilized conversation and discussion I'm game. But don't you think for a second that I'll allow anyone to tell me that I didn't do research on a profession that I had my eyes set on since I was 12. What I may not have done was do the research as you would have liked, perhaps you should write a book about it and have it published so people can do exactly as you did and live such a great life.

[clestudentpilot]

Originally Posted by Polarbear

I am not saying it's acceptable. I'm pointing out that you in fact you did not do your research. History repeats itself. If someone or something breaks it's word, They (it) will do it again.

Now, with that said, working for a government agency is working for an employer who will always go back on their word. Not because they are liars, but because our government is a republic. Our leaders change and change often. With that, the rules change and change often. What one administration does another can take back. Sometimes its for the good, sometimes its for the bad.

You know what? I like it that way. When something bad gets put in place, it can get changed. Unfortunately the good can be taken away too.No one and nothing is perfect, but I would love for you to point out a government better than the US Government.

This is such a great country we live in, and it is great these discussions can occur, in 95% of the world this discussion wouldn't take place unless the government controlled it. Every profession goes through its ups and downs. I know many in here place every bit of blame on George Bush since after all he is the most evil person in the world (those same people also think a government conspiracy caused September 11th, not bin laden), but the bottom line is that people in some professions, mostly those with a union, hate republicans, and poeple in other professions (mostly those without a union) hate democrats. It is very obvious that this is 100% a political thread, and I'm not going to debate which party is better or worse. The reason for this is that in this day and age there is not one politician that is worth a damn. ALL politicians are corrupt bastards. When you vote on election day, you vote for the better of two evils, not for someone who can turn things around, because that will never happen. Anyone who belives a word of what these politicians say when they're running is a fool, because history tells you that they say what needs to be said to keep their supporters, and win a few along the way. I've said what I felt needed to be said about this thread. Polarbear, I agree with most of what you've said, but back off a little on surreal. I'm sure he did some research on the profession ahead of time, maybe he didn't plan on the route things would take, but is obviously passionate about ATC. Surreal, just try to read what polarbear has said, other than any shots taken on you. He brings up valid points. The bottom line is that no one can count on the government living up to everything we think it should, because history shows that the givernment has let us down before, and it will let us down again. I'm going to leave in saying this, people need to stop being concerned with money. Money doesn't buy happiness. Everyone should choose a career field they are happy in, and as long as you can make ends meet do it. Anyone who chooses a job, and their decission is in any way based on money is a fool and isn't concerned with happiness. I've learned this the hard way. I'm in the process of changing career fields all because I was concerned with the money I made, not my happiness, I now realize my priorities were completely backwards.

Sorry about my run-on paragraph

[canadian_atc]

Money doesn't buy happiness, I agree, but it sure as hell helps. coming from someone who spent 8 years a rampie, then student pilot turned ATC.

I'm a helluva lot happier since I don't worry about bills, creditors and all that crap anymore.

I can also tell you, that for 40K per year I wouldn't have applied to ATC, I would have kept slugging with the flying bit.

[Polarbear]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Look man.

You can keep being a dick and telling me that I didn't do my research, or you can back off a little bit.

Up to you.

I did my research, you don't know me and you've never stepped a foot in my life. So just keep your assumptions about my "research or lack thereof" in your little bag of tricks.

It doesn't work. More over, you're telling me things about working for a government agency that I already know about. But, you wouldn't know this because you don't know me from Adam.

If you'd like to have a civilized conversation and discussion I'm game. But don't you think for a second that I'll allow anyone to tell me that I didn't do research on a profession that I had my eyes set on since I was 12. What I may not have done was do the research as you would have liked, perhaps you should write a book about it and have it published so people can do exactly as you did and live such a great life.

Well I am sorry if you feel I am being a "dick" towards you.

Your comments have not been offensive and have been completely civil toward me

You started it in this thread with your comments on OTS applicants. I countered.

You are right, I do not know you personally, though I have been an active member on here for several years. I may not post thousands of messages, but I do read most threads in the forums that interest me. Therefore I have read much of what you have written on here. I base my comments on that. When you make possibly offensive comments you make a large target for yourself.

I have held back in other threads, but your comments on OTS brought me to comment. You responded, I responded. Don't try to play victim. We are both to blame for the flames in this thread.

I also decided to officially put out my stance on CTI. I am sorry if you are offended, but that is my opinion. CTI=PFT/PFJ. I have no problem with it, but when you consistently whine and say: "Poor me, I didn't get what I expected", I am going to call you out for lack of research. You get zero sympathy from me, sorry if that offends you. I could say worse things, but believe it or not, I am a pretty nice guy so I won't.

Now, I am done flaming you in this thread. As long as you mind your comments on other threads I will mind mine.

Feel free to PM me if you need to resolve this further.

[surreal1221]

CTI = PFJ/PFT?

Well, when some guys have graduated from CTI programs back in 01-02 and had to go through hoops to get their names put back on the list to be called after their names were removed following the two year grace period I can't quite agree with your opinion that these guys are paying for a job or paying for training. They still have to go through OKC, and . . .they have some sort of degree in the field. While it's a joke degree, I'll agree with you on that, it is higher learning.

So English teachers PFJ/PFT when they major in English at a liberal arts school? Do financial analysts PFJ/PFT when they major in economics at an Ivy league school? So what I'm saying is real simple.

Every industry has some equivalent area of study at a college or university. Trouble with ATC is that there is only one employer that will likely hire individuals with no prior ATC work experience (contract ATC aside is what I'm saying). So, when these individuals graduate with a degree in whatever with a CTI recommendation (remember, these people can major in Economics and do the minimal required course work for a CTI recommendation) they are simply offering themselves to the one employer in this country that provides Air Traffic services - The FAA.

Now, if your beef is with the fact that for the previous 20 years, past three years excluded, that the FAA wasn't hiring anyone unless they went through the MARC school (is that PFJ/PFT too?), Military (is that PFJ/PFT cause we pay for it with our time and QOL), or CTI (which you obviously feel is PFJ/PFT and no amount of rational discussion will steer your clear of such a rash statement), then I can partially feel your pain. For whatever reason, you think that off the street hires got the shaft for the 90's and early part of 2000's. Fine, tough titties. Move on. I have.

Just saying . . . horrible attempt at an analogy.

Furthermore, CTI students and graduates are not told it's a guaranteed job. Maybe that's where you are mistaken. Remove that thought process and maybe you'll be able to see the light. They graduate, their name is put on a list, they take the AT-SAT, and are selected. Some are never selected and are forced to seek employment elsewhere. So, it's not a guaranteed job. But think what you wish.

Well, hope your career takes you far.

Also - at least you openly state you're flaming me in a thread. Glad to see cooler heads prevailed. . . Go have a beer. Go ahead and tell me though which comments in this thread sent you over the top? Did I call you out as an Off the Street Hire? Or are you outing yourself? That's something to be proud of.

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by Polarbear

I also decided to officially put out my stance on CTI. I am sorry if you are offended, but that is my opinion. CTI=PFT/PFJ.

I have to chime in and take exception with this statement... you're comparing apples and oranges.

As I stated in an earlier post I was privy to early CTI information due to my involvement with NATCA and one of my coworkers spouse was a manager on the FAA CTI team. During the 90's thru about 02' the only way for a civilian to be hired into the FAA as an ATCS was via CTI or MARC (MARC could be argued as PFT but that's for another time).

During the 90's enrollment at aviation colleges was increasing. The FAA was looking for a way to recruit the college aviation student into the FAA. Hence the CTI program was created. They never promised anyone a job... the intention of the program was to offer a few basic "elective" courses in ATC. Upon passing those courses AND a recommendation by the teacher the student was then able to take the written exam for ATC. This was the ONLY way a civilian could take the exam... there was no other way.

The program took a little while to catch on but it did become popular and the stats I saw quite a few years ago indicated the students did well at OKC and in the field. In the early 2000's (prior to the IWR's) the FAA was still having trouble filling slots in hard to staff facilities, particularly in some large cities such as NY, Chicago, ATL, Oakland, etc. In these areas they offered the ATSAT test to "off the street people". These tests only qualified these candidates to work in the geographic area the test was offered in. So ... if you took the test in Oakland you could not get hired anywhere else in the nation. Following the IWR's many CTI students turned the job down, the FAA scrambled to fill these slots and began offering them to OTS people and began offering the test all over the country.

I don't blame the students for being mad... the FAA wanted college educated people to fill the slots as ATCS but then turned around and offered them minimum wage.

[Polarbear]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

So English teachers PFJ/PFT when they major in English at a liberal arts school? Do financial analysts PFJ/PFT when they major in economics at an Ivy league school? So what I'm saying is real simple.

No, those have always required degrees.

Now being PFJ/PFT is not bad in my book. Every human being takes the advantages they can get to get a job, that is a free society for you. However, those that go this route do tend to look at $$$ signs more than listen to guys that would have told them not to count on the money given.

What I have a problem with is when you whine and complain when you didn't get what you want. Furthermore you constantly berate those that want to get in the field. I have stated this several times, need me to quote myself to show you this?

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Every industry has some equivalent area of study at a college or university. Trouble with ATC is that there is only one employer that will likely hire individuals with no prior ATC work experience (contract ATC aside is what I'm saying). So, when these individuals graduate with a degree in whatever with a CTI recommendation (remember, these people can major in Economics and do the minimal required course work for a CTI recommendation) they are simply offering themselves to the one employer in this country that provides Air Traffic services - The FAA.

True, I PFT'd by going to A&P school. I could have gone through the military(which never is PFT/PFJ BTW) or worked my way slaving in a shop for 3 years. I chose the quick route.

When a new mechanic comes straight out of A&P school and starts whining about how bad the industry is, I tell the same thing: Quit whining, you should have done your research better.

My problem is not that you PFT'd it is that you PFT'd and then complain about it. Worse you berate and belittle those that wish to go where you chose not to. I would have never said anything had you been constructive in your criticism

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Now, if your beef is with the fact that for the previous 20 years, past three years excluded, that the FAA wasn't hiring anyone unless they went through the MARC school (is that PFJ/PFT too?), Military (is that PFJ/PFT cause we pay for it with our time and QOL), or CTI (which you obviously feel is PFJ/PFT and no amount of rational discussion will steer your clear of such a rash statement), then I can partially feel your pain. For whatever reason, you think that off the street hires got the shaft for the 90's and early part of 2000's. Fine, tough titties. Move on. I have.

Putting words in my mouth again. When did I say VRA was PFT?

Since you brought up VRAs, how many turn down the offer and complain like you do?

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Well, hope your career takes you far.

Go ahead and tell me though which comments in this thread sent you over the top? Did I call you out as an Off the Street Hire? Or are you outing yourself? That's something to be proud of.

I have not been set off. You have not upset me at any point. The original comments I quoted on my last post (plus comments from other threads) led me to respond.

If you called me out as an OTS hire, thats news to me.

For the record, yes, I am an OTS applicant. Yes I have received a tentative offer. Yes, I have accepted it and am waiting for my paperwork to clear.

I have not announced it because it is not a final offer yet.
I didn't announce my airline jobs until I had a final offers too. Your point?

[Polarbear]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

I have to chime in and take exception with this statement... you're comparing apples and oranges.

As I stated in an earlier post I was privy to early CTI information due to my involvement with NATCA and one of my coworkers spouse was a manager on the FAA CTI team. During the 90's thru about 02' the only way for a civilian to be hired into the FAA as an ATCS was via CTI or MARC (MARC could be argued as PFT but that's for another time).

During the 90's enrollment at aviation colleges was increasing. The FAA was looking for a way to recruit the college aviation student into the FAA. Hence the CTI program was created. They never promised anyone a job... the intention of the program was to offer a few basic "elective" courses in ATC. Upon passing those courses AND a recommendation by the teacher the student was then able to take the written exam for ATC. This was the ONLY way a civilian could take the exam... there was no other way.

The program took a little while to catch on but it did become popular and the stats I saw quite a few years ago indicated the students did well at OKC and in the field. In the early 2000's (prior to the IWR's) the FAA was still having trouble filling slots in hard to staff facilities, particularly in some large cities such as NY, Chicago, ATL, Oakland, etc. In these areas they offered the ATSAT test to "off the street people". These tests only qualified these candidates to work in the geographic area the test was offered in. So ... if you took the test in Oakland you could not get hired anywhere else in the nation. Following the IWR's many CTI students turned the job down, the FAA scrambled to fill these slots and began offering them to OTS people and began offering the test all over the country.

I don't blame the students for being mad... the FAA wanted college educated people to fill the slots as ATCS but then turned around and offered them minimum wage.

I have great respect for you as your in the position I hope to get to.

I will not argue with you, however the controllers I talked to in my high school days (I graduated nearly 10 years ago) through 2004 all believed OTS would return when retirements started occurring. All stated CTI was too much of a gamble, especially with the little amount of hiring going on.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Polarbear

No, those have always required degrees.

Now being PFJ/PFT is not bad in my book. Every human being takes the advantages they can get to get a job, that is a free society for you. However, those that go this route do tend to look at $$$ signs more than listen to guys that would have told them not to count on the money given.

What I have a problem with is when you whine and complain when you didn't get what you want. Furthermore you constantly berate those that want to get in the field. I have stated this several times, need me to quote myself to show you this?



True, I PFT'd by going to A&P school. I could have gone through the military(which never is PFT/PFJ BTW) or worked my way slaving in a shop for 3 years. I chose the quick route.

When a new mechanic comes straight out of A&P school and starts whining about how bad the industry is, I tell the same thing: Quit whining, you should have done your research better.

My problem is not that you PFT'd it is that you PFT'd and then complain about it. Worse you berate and belittle those that wish to go where you chose not to. I would have never said anything had you been constructive in your criticism



Putting words in my mouth again. When did I say VRA was PFT?

Since you brought up VRAs, how many turn down the offer and complain like you do?



I have not been set off. You have not upset me at any point. The original comments I quoted on my last post (plus comments from other threads) led me to respond.

If you called me out as an OTS hire, thats news to me.

For the record, yes, I am an OTS applicant. Yes I have received a tentative offer. Yes, I have accepted it and am waiting for my paperwork to clear.

I have not announced it because it is not a final offer yet.
I didn't announce my airline jobs until I had a final offers too. Your point?

I yi yi. . .

I never said you said the military was PFT/PFJ - I did say though that those of us who did serve in the military did pay for our job and training through the quality of life that we had to deal with throughout our period with the military or in government service. So there, I said it. . . not you. But I know that analogy doesn't really translate well to those who lack military service.

Since you asked about how many guys turned down VRA appointments, not too many, but I hope you've been to NATCA's website and read the numerous resignation letters from previous DOD controllers who were enjoying a great QOL before coming to the FAA. They jumped ship to head back to the DoD sector. I can't say I blame them. It's a professional field, that should be respected and paid accordingly. None of this keeping aluminum tubes from touching for peanut wages. At least not for me, and not for a number of VRA / Previous DoD controllers who have resigned.

Furthermore, I really do wish you the best of luck.

I think it's real easy and nice for you to be able to sit back and chill out knowing that you took the high road in your mind. Great, now go and do it. Good luck. Don't wash out at OKC, don't wash out of your facility, and make the best of it.

But don't expect the CTI graduates to take too well to you belittling them because you feel personally that it was PFJ/PFT. Some of those guys have advanced degrees in other fields, and much like flying for a living, dreamed of working traffic and they had their chance opened up to them through the CTI program.

If it helps you to think that you did it the old school way and that it'll get you brownie points - then by all means, spread the word that you know all and that you didn't spend time at a university earning a degree with a CTI recommendation. As I graduated HS the military, MARC, and CTI were it. I enlisted in the military and simultaneously worked towards my CTI education. When the time came, the FAA let me down - more importantly, the House of Representatives let me down as well.

But you know what? Some of us wear big boy pants and deal with it, and quit and say no. We then seek other sectors of an industry that we enjoy (flying for a living), and we then move on.

And I know I didn't call you out as an OTS hire. . .it was a rhetorical question.

More importantly, the following is very important. . .so please do read, and just respond to it.

I'll never forget how long and hard NATCA fought with the FAA to get them to return to the table.

This also affected you, Mr. OTS guy. Why should you be paid 30-40% less than those who were hired in the 80's? Hell, why should you be paid 30-40% less than those who were hired 2 to 6 years before you? What makes you cheaper labor? CTI, VRA, or OTS? You tell me that.

Until people, of all industries, quit devaluing their professional skills - organizations (public or private) will continue to follow along, bringing down wages for people who don't realize their own professional skills and what those skills cost.

Three Resignation Letters

I have numerous others in my e-mail inbox from Doug Church. They are though, in .pdf format. 4 are from VRA hires who left the agency after less than one year, all thanks to the FAA's imposed work rules and pay structure.

Just realize it's not just CTI individuals who are fed up. It's everyone, and you should be extremely concerned as well. What's to stop the FAA from imposing another "contract" with even further reductions in pay? You can't tell us that you are not in any way concerned and that you'd do this job no matter what you're paid.

[Polarbear]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Furthermore, I really do wish you the best of luck.

I think it's real easy and nice for you to be able to sit back and chill out knowing that you took the high road in your mind. Great, now go and do it. Good luck. Don't wash out at OKC, don't wash out of your facility, and make the best of it.[/quote]

Thank you

Originally Posted by surreal1221

But don't expect the CTI graduates to take too well to you belittling them because you feel personally that it was PFJ/PFT. Some of those guys have advanced degrees in other fields, and much like flying for a living, dreamed of working traffic and they had their chance opened up to them through the CTI program.

Well I do no belittle anyone that does not belittle me first, and pretty much I try not to belittle anyone. You fail to read my posts and see I responded because I got tired of your whining and belittling remarks. Not because your CTI.

[surreal1221]

No comment on the bolded portion?

Why should YOU (Mr. OTS), or for that matter (You = general use, to include any ATC hired post imposed work rules and pay) be paid less than the individuals prior to you? What makes you the cheaper labor?

And for the record, I've never whined about my situation. You may take it as such since you consider(ed) the CTI program to be PFJ/PFT but I'm happy things worked out the way they did for me personally. I though, will never stop fighting for improved QOL, work rules, and pay for controllers of all stripes. I certainly hope you'll do the same, if not, that's where the problem comes in.

[Polarbear]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

No comment on the bolded portion?

Separate argument, I have said my piece with you. You obviously only look at money and nothing else. The greed runs through your words. You can't argue with that.

The pay will get better, maybe not to the point you want, but it will.

Remember, those guys that came in after the PATCO strike came in under imposed work rules. Are you now slandering them too? That's very big of you. Especially seeing as you have not spent one day in their shoes. At least I have not attacked those that are actually where I want to be.

If you would rather shut down the NAS, crippling this country, that is your issue. I would rather keep it going and get politicians into DC to force the FAA back to the table.

[surreal1221]

Man you're full of tricks.

It's real easy to see that you can not answer a simple question.

No matter what industry you work in, you should value your professional skills. If you do not, then your employer will not.

No one has suggested shutting down the NAS, and crippling the country.

Nevertheless, okay you've said your peice in regards to my personal opinions. Great, congrats. Now, would you like to carry onward in regards to the discussion focusing on pay, work rules, and QOL? If not, then I can only vision that you do not want to fight to see any sort of return of the pay, work rules, and QOL that was previously attainable.

Yes, controllers hired after the strike worked under work rules that others would not. . .but you know what. . .they faught to bring some respectability to the profession. Something those being hired off the street now will also have to do, that is, if they feel that they value their own professional skills as such. If not, then hey, work for peanuts. But know you're making this decision as a collective profession.

If it is really US Controller's goal to be the lowest paid western civilization controllers on the world then more power to you. At least that way you guys can come to a collective decision as a group. Unfortunately (for you, and those who decide this I suppose) the larger collective group of NATCA will not allow it to happen.

I know where NATCA stands, and that is right where I stand. Has nothing to do with dollar signs, but rather with respect for a profession that should be respected.

One more thing. Show me where I have attacked anyone. I'd love to see this.

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by Polarbear

I have great respect for you as your in the position I hope to get to.

I will not argue with you, however the controllers I talked to in my high school days (I graduated nearly 10 years ago) through 2004 all believed OTS would return when retirements started occurring. All stated CTI was too much of a gamble, especially with the little amount of hiring going on.

I always enjoy a good argument... errr... debate... LOL.

The core idea of what you are saying is on track... I agree with that. I was told many years ago not to wait around for the FAA to call... because they may never call. That was good advice then and is still good advice now.

If you graduated HS 10 years ago that put you in your late teens in 97', you had time on your side with the age 31 cutoff. Other folks did not have that luxury... back in 97' people who were in their mid to late 20's were starting to get close to aging out for ATC. With no OTS test on the horizon CTI was really the only option. I have been asked about CTI for quite a few years and I always tell people whether in person or on this forum to follow your dream... BUT, when it comes to the FAA have a plan B.

I'm more of the opinion that much of the blame for broken promises to ATC students falls on these aviation colleges and their ATC programs. This is based on my first hand experience. I have spoken to some of the CTI new hires at my facility that graduated from places like UND and Riddle and was just blown away on what they spent and what they did. Some of these programs were 4 years in ATC ! All kinds of labs and stuff... IMHO a waste of time and a lot of money. Much of their expectations were based on what the schools told them.

As for the PFT I view PFT as paying for training that the employer would normally pay for. I last spoke (Q&A session) to students in a CTI program sometime in the mid to late 90's (back when NATCA and the FAA were friendly) and back then it was not PFT. Just some basic classes to see if the students could be taught some basic ATC info and pass tests on it. After reading your post and spending some time on websites of aviation colleges offering CTI I have to admit... a lot has changed on the CTI landscape in the past 10 years, some programs read a bit like PFT... yet the students still have to attend OKC.

I still feel that CTI's did get a bit of a raw deal... though my blame for that is spread more towards their schools then the FAA. I feel ALL new hires are getting hosed by the FAA... I believe the current management structure is setting many of these people up to fail buts that's a debate (argument... LOL) for another time.

This is a touchy issue, don't take anything personal. Best of luck to you in whatever path you choose and if you have any ATC questions, technical or about the job itself, don't hesitate to post or PM me.

[Polarbear]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Man you're full of tricks.

Very mature.

Originally Posted by surreal1221

No one has suggested shutting down the NAS, and crippling the country.

If noone goes to work for the FAA, that is exactly what will happen.

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Yes, controllers hired after the strike worked under work rules that others would not. . .but you know what. . .they faught to bring some respectability to the profession. Something those being hired off the street now will also have to do, that is, if they feel that they value their own professional skills as such. If not, then hey, work for peanuts. But know you're making this decision as a collective profession.

No arguement there. Why don't you come in and join the fight if your still under 30? Your not doing anything sitting on the sidelines. The pay is still better than a regional airline, though I admit the pay and QOL could get better if your lucky enough to make it to the majors or a nice corprate gig.

If you are over 30, why don't you stop destructively criticizing those that want to get into the proffession, and provide constructive criticism to those that ask questions?

Originally Posted by surreal1221

If it is really US Controller's goal to be the lowest paid western civilization controllers on the world then more power to you. At least that way you guys can come to a collective decision as a group. Unfortunately (for you, and those who decide this I suppose) the larger collective group of NATCA will not allow it to happen.

Of course that shouldn't be anyone's goal. However, simply taking a job durring a time of impasse when it is critical to get new guys in to keep the NAS running is not doing that.

I realize things are bad now. I also realize they will get better. They will get better by joing the fight. I definitely intend to support NATCA.

At the same time, my country comes before my profession. I will not cripple it. I support NATCA, but if they get to greedy I will stop supporting them and draw a line. At this point in time, I agree management is too greedy and needs to get back to the table.

I only swear allegance to the United States of America, not any union, management, or any other organization.

I believe in equality. If the union or management gets to greedy, I will join the other's fight. Call me scum, but we all have a greater purpos