Speed Question

[dc3flyer]

So the other day we were flying into an undisclosed airport. The Center controller advised us around FL240 (in a descent) to maintain 300 knots for spacing. He then proceeded to hand us off to another Center controller who handed us off to an Approach controller. By this time we were level at 8,000' and still maintaining 300 knots. After a few minutes, the Approach controller called us and said we were showing 320 knots across the ground and asked if we had a HUGE tailwind. I advised him we were "assigned" 300 knots and he couldn't believe it.

My question in: Should we have slowed down to 250 at 10,000' as normal, or should we have maintained 300 as we were asked?




Nothing else was said except "resume normal speed", so I am not worried about any actions, I just am new to the jet experience so this confused me a little.

[SIUav8er]

You are not supposed to accept a clearance that is in violation of the FARs. Its the PICs responsibility to adhere to all the regs, not rely on ATC to do it for them.

[SpiraMirabilis]

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

You are not supposed to accept a clearance that is in violation of the FARs. Its the PICs responsibility to adhere to all the regs, not rely on ATC to do it for them.

so the correct answer would have been: yes we have a huge tailwind. ?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

You are not supposed to accept a clearance that is in violation of the FARs. Its the PICs responsibility to adhere to all the regs, not rely on ATC to do it for them.

Pretty sure ATC can authorize it.

Sec. 91.117

Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).
(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.
(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Pretty sure ATC can authorize it.

Sec. 91.117

Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

ATC does not qualify as "The Administrator" as far as I know.

A and D are the only relevant sections to this discussion. Since D does not apply to the CRJ or ERJ, we can safely say that A is the only applicable section.

But besides all that, I hate to "call someone out" but how did neither you nor your captain know about this regulation and that when ATC gives you a higher speed you're supposed to slow down at 10,000 feet? It's one of the most basic rules out there in 121 "jet flying". It's a sad state of affairs when the 300 hour wonder FO with his 1500 hour "Old salt" captain can't operate an airplane carrying 50 passengers. Imagine there had be a loss of separation due to your complete failure to comply with FARs (and exceed the speed limit by FIFTY KNOTS)... Or even worse, imagine you knew your family was on a flight being led by such general ineptitude. Going to remedial training seems like it should be necessary, of course, it won't happen. Just be lucky you still have your certificate, though I'd fill out an ASAP or NASA or whatever your company uses.

Scary stuff. Maybe the old timers are right about low-timers.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

ATC does not qualify as "The Administrator" as far as I know.

No? (I really don't know.)

Not that it makes it right if it's wrong, but I swear I've heard ATC authorize higher speeds to you jet guys below 10k. Who knows though - I could have easily misheard.

[Chris_Ford]

Upon further investigation I've got a sound "no" re: ATC qualifying as the administrator (as I had believed)

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Upon further investigation I've got a sound "no" re: ATC qualifying as the administrator (as I had believed)

Cool.

I have to admit to basically rote memorizing 91.117 because it never has applied to me before. I'm no low time guy (as compared to regional new-hires), but if I were a new RJ FO I'd have to ask the cappy were I in dcflyer's shoes, as obviously I already admitted I assumed ATC could authorize it.

Learn something new every day!

[Chris_Ford]

Even still if you were unsure at all, you could ask ATC for a clarification. I'd rather sound stupid over the frequency than be violated.

Another fine example of ATC flying the airplane for a crew...

[queeno]

atc excepts an aircraft to slow to 250 kts before decending below 10000' no matter what speed you are assigned above 10000', the only exception would be for operational reason for a higher speed.

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

So the other day we were flying into an undisclosed airport. The Center controller advised us around FL240 (in a descent) to maintain 300 knots for spacing. He then proceeded to hand us off to another Center controller who handed us off to an Approach controller. By this time we were level at 8,000' and still maintaining 300 knots. After a few minutes, the Approach controller called us and said we were showing 320 knots across the ground and asked if we had a HUGE tailwind. I advised him we were "assigned" 300 knots and he couldn't believe it.

My question in: Should we have slowed down to 250 at 10,000' as normal, or should we have maintained 300 as we were asked?


Nothing else was said except "resume normal speed", so I am not worried about any actions, I just am new to the jet experience so this confused me a little.

Just wondering when were you going to slow down?

[LarryinTN]

Originally Posted by Ian J

I swear I've heard ATC authorize higher speeds to you jet guys below 10k.

Where they in an area where they might have been more than 12 miles off the coast where the 250kts limit does not apply?

[dc3flyer]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

ATC does not qualify as "The Administrator" as far as I know.

A and D are the only relevant sections to this discussion. Since D does not apply to the CRJ or ERJ, we can safely say that A is the only applicable section.

But besides all that, I hate to "call someone out" but how did neither you nor your captain know about this regulation and that when ATC gives you a higher speed you're supposed to slow down at 10,000 feet? It's one of the most basic rules out there in 121 "jet flying". It's a sad state of affairs when the 300 hour wonder FO with his 1500 hour "Old salt" captain can't operate an airplane carrying 50 passengers.

Who said I was in a CRJ or ERJ? Who said I was a 300 hour wonder? I probably have way more hours than you, just not in a jet. I know my captain probably has your time times 5.

I know I have heard ATC "allow" people to keep their speed up below 10,000 many times, as well as request that they do. I had just personally never been in the situation.

Imagine there had be a loss of separation due to your complete failure to comply with FARs (and exceed the speed limit by FIFTY KNOTS)...

Loss of seperation???? Because I was going faster than the regulations allow? I don't think the regulations have ANYTHING to do with my aircarft limitations.

[BobDDuck]

I'm with Chris on this one. It scares the hell out of me that a 121 crew (or 135 or 91) in a jet wouldn't know this.

Also, if your company has an ASAP program this would probably be a good time to file one. The approach controller may not care, but if the tapes are audited later, they can still come after you. Then again, an ASAP may not help you out too much in this situation as it is a pretty blatant violation.

EDIT:

Loss of seperation???? Because I was going faster than the regulations allow? I don't think the regulations have ANYTHING to do with my aircarft limitations.

Ok, loss of separation has nothing to do with your aircraft limitations. He meant that you going 50 knots faster (or more) then the plane in front of you could mean you would run him over and the controller wouldn't see it until the last second because he was counting on you to be at 250.

I have NEVER heard of a controller granting better then 250 below 10 unless it is due to operational necessity and even then it needs to be asked for.

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

Who said I was in a CRJ or ERJ? Who said I was a 300 hour wonder? I probably have way more hours than you, just not in a jet. I know my captain probably has your time times 5.

I know I have heard ATC "allow" people to keep their speed up below 10,000 many times, as well as request that they do. I had just personally never been in the situation.



Loss of seperation???? Because I was going faster than the regulations allow? I don't think the regulations have ANYTHING to do with my aircarft limitations.

Just for the record when ATC asks you to "Keep your speed up" that doesn't mean to exceed 250kts below 10,000ft.

[bike21]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

Just wondering when were you going to slow down?

I don't want to harsh your mellow here, but assuming you were part of a 121 or 91 crew that day, this is really surprising. We all make goofs, and I am certainly not immune myself...have used the 'mega tailwind' once before...but I was astonished to hear you were purposefully keeping your speed up that high below 10,000 for so long. You say you are new to jet experience, were you in the back listening to ATC or a new FO?

I have had ATC tell me numerous times to accelerate to 250+ (280, 310, etc) when we are climbing out below 10k, but it is assumed we will increase speed once we get above 10k. Same thing when descending, it is assumed you will slow to 250 once below 10k. Like Chris Ford said, ATC may not authorize us to break the 250 rule under 10k.

Be careful out there and don't get busted! Like I said, not trying to make fun here, but a brother needs to know his regs heh?

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

Who said I was in a CRJ or ERJ? Who said I was a 300 hour wonder? I probably have way more hours than you, just not in a jet. I know my captain probably has your time times 5.

What type of aircraft was it then, chief? And pray tell, how many hours do you have CFIing or, even better, dropping meat missiles or taking pretty pictures of the ground...

Your captain ought to lose his ATP for such an egregious lack of BASIC PART NINETY ONE KNOWLEDGE. Seriously, the more I read this the more I feel absolutely ashamed of you.

Loss of seperation???? Because I was going faster than the regulations allow? I don't think the regulations have ANYTHING to do with my aircarft limitations.

What airline do you fly for? I will never put any of my family on their flights.

[dc3flyer]

Originally Posted by bike21

I don't want to harsh your mellow here, but assuming you were part of a 121 or 91 crew that day, this is really surprising. We all make goofs, and I am certainly not immune myself...have used the 'mega tailwind' once before...

Be careful out there and don't get busted! Like I said, not trying to make fun here, but a brother needs to know his regs heh?

Thanks for admitting that we all make mistakes, some people seem to forget that...


It is not like I don't know the 250 knot reg, I was just under the same impression as Ian that ATC could "let" you go faster than the 250. I am a new FO on a corporate jet. My captain told me (after the fact) that he was a dumbass and that we should have slowed down. I just assumed (I know, bad deal) that since he is MUCH more experienced than me that it was okay. Next time something like this happens I will question him earlier since I am more edumacated.

I asked the question so I would know the answer as this is the first time I have been in the situation of being asked to keep a speed greater than 250 while in a descent to below 10,000. Most of my time is in twin piston aircraft that are not capable of doing that.

[Omdahl]

In ATC, we have this rule:

5−7−1. APPLICATION
Keep speed adjustments to the minimum necessary to
achieve or maintain required or desired spacing.
Avoid adjustments requiring alternate decreases and
increases. Permit pilots to resume normal speed when
previously specified adjustments are no longer
needed.

NOTE−
It is the pilot’s responsibility and prerogative to refuse
speed adjustment that he/she considers excessive or
contrary to the aircraft’s operating specifications.

NOTE−
1. A pilot operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL on an
assigned speed adjustment greater than 250 knots is
expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a) when
cleared below 10,000 feet MSL, within domestic airspace,
without notifying ATC. Pilots are expected to comply with
the other provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.117 without
notification.

[exleardriver]

dc3flyer - perfectly reasonable of you to ask any question. i think you knew the reg, too, but it's also true that not every controller is a pilot and thus don't always know all of our general operating rules to the letter..and two, they can and do make mistakes..had a atc trainee so discombobulated the other day while flying practice instrument approaches that she kept getting tongue-tied to the point of chucklin her and there, calling the approach the 'vfr 5 approach', etc. she had a senior controller cut in several times to help out. often, early in my career, i too assumed the atc controllers were always correct. know your own general operating rules, and make a point to review the pilot/controller glossary in the aim. good review. thanks for sharing your question. i'm sure it will help others..just not those pilots who've always 'known it all'.

lighten up people.

[dc3flyer]

Originally Posted by Omdahl

In ATC, we have this rule:

NOTE−
1. A pilot operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL on an
assigned speed adjustment greater than 250 knots is
expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a) when
cleared below 10,000 feet MSL, within domestic airspace,
without notifying ATC. Pilots are expected to comply with
the other provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.117 without
notification.

Something like that was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!!!

Originally Posted by exleardriver

i'm sure it will help others..just not those pilots who've always 'known it all'.

Tell me about it!

[bike21]

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

Thanks for admitting that we all make mistakes, some people seem to forget that...

No worries man, I am all about helping out and not pointing fingers, causing hysterics and name calling I will leave that to other people here

Originally Posted by exleardriver

lighten up people.

Exactumundo

[BajtheJino]

Meat Missiles? Is that like Steaks-To-Go?

[Omdahl]

I'm glad you posted this question. This isn't the first time someone was over 250 under 10,000 and it won't be the last. You learn from it and others learn from it.

[casey]

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

I know I have heard ATC "allow" people to keep their speed up below 10,000 many times, as well as request that they do. I had just personally never been in the situation.

just for reference, when you hear this it is relation to a crossing restriction like "Cross XYZ at 10,000 ft and 250 kts". The "keep your speed up"/"no speed over XYZ"/"go fast" from ATC means delete the 250kt restriction, but you still need to slow to 250 when given a descent out of 10,000 ft.

likewise, if you are on the climbout and ATC assigns you 290kts while you are at 5000 ft, what them mean is "when able", ie, climb to 10,000 ft before accelerating.

US ATC cannot authorize you to exceed 250 below 10, and you'll know it if you are in an aircraft that is granted an exemption.