Speed Question

[Dugie8]

After reading this, and thinking about it, a conclusion has been reached that is scary. At first I wanted to jump in with the "WTFO" response, then I thought about it and thought the "everyone makes mistakes" excuse was valid, then thought it about it some more and now am back to WTFO!!!

Descending through 11,000 and dialing back the VS rate and then getting a bit distracted only to come through 10,000 at 265 knots, is a mistake; missing a radio call is a mistake; forgetting a checklist is a mistake; blatently disregarding regs IS NOT A MISTAKE. You both claim to know the 10,000/2509 rule, and this is the scary part, but instead of falling back to a conservative attitude you BOTH decided, what the hell, ATC said do it, so we are going to ignore the rule, WTFO!!! When did flying all of sudden become about doing whatever you want RIGHT up to the edge of safety??? When did everyone throw the conservative mind set out the window???

Why is it so hard to follow the rules anymore and be a conservative pilot. Lately, here and in my experience(s), everyone seems to be looking for easy out, the shortcuts, the ways around the regs. JUST DO IT RIGHT for crying out loud.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

After reading this, and thinking about it, a conclusion has been reached that is scary. At first I wanted to jump in with the "WTFO" response, then I thought about it and thought the "everyone makes mistakes" excuse was valid, then thought it about it some more and now am back to WTFO!!!

Descending through 11,000 and dialing back the VS rate and then getting a bit distracted only to come through 10,000 at 265 knots, is a mistake; missing a radio call is a mistake; forgetting a checklist is a mistake; blatently disregarding regs IS NOT A MISTAKE. You both claim to know the 10,000/2509 rule, and this is the scary part, but instead of falling back to a conservative attitude you BOTH decided, what the hell, ATC said do it, so we are going to ignore the rule, WTFO!!! When did flying all of sudden become about doing whatever you want RIGHT up to the edge of safety??? When did everyone throw the conservative mind set out the window???

Why is it so hard to follow the rules anymore and be a conservative pilot. Lately, here and in my experience(s), everyone seems to be looking for easy out, the shortcuts, the ways around the regs. JUST DO IT RIGHT for crying out loud.

You saw this post, right?

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

Thanks for admitting that we all make mistakes, some people seem to forget that...


It is not like I don't know the 250 knot reg, I was just under the same impression as Ian that ATC could "let" you go faster than the 250. I am a new FO on a corporate jet. My captain told me (after the fact) that he was a dumbass and that we should have slowed down. I just assumed (I know, bad deal) that since he is MUCH more experienced than me that it was okay. Next time something like this happens I will question him earlier since I am more edumacated.

I asked the question so I would know the answer as this is the first time I have been in the situation of being asked to keep a speed greater than 250 while in a descent to below 10,000. Most of my time is in twin piston aircraft that are not capable of doing that.

I don't think this:

Why is it so hard to follow the rules anymore and be a conservative pilot. Lately, here and in my experience(s), everyone seems to be looking for easy out, the shortcuts, the ways around the regs. JUST DO IT RIGHT for crying out loud.

really reflects DC3flyer's or his captain's actions.

And if I were Dc3flyer, I'd be thinking that this was the very last question I posted on JC.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Ian J

really reflects DC3flyer's or his captain's actions.

And if I were Dc3flyer, I'd be thinking that this was the very last question I posted on JC.

As a professional pilot you are paid to operate an aircraft safely. Following FAA regs is part of the deal. Failure to do this is not only unprofessional but potentially dangerous.

I don't fault the new guy FO as much as the captain who has "5 times as many hours as [me]" should be familiar with such a freaking basic part 91 reg.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

As a professional pilot you are paid to operate an aircraft safely. Following FAA regs is part of the deal. Failure to do this is not only unprofessional but potentially dangerous.

Well, duh.

[Chris_Ford]

I forget that not all of us strive to do the best job possible.

Sorry about that. Continue saying "it's okay, everyone makes mistakes" when they were completely ignorant towards the rules of the road. It's cool. Let's all do 320 knots tomorrow in a show of solidarity for incompetence!

[bike21]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

I forget that not all of us strive to do the best job possible.

Sorry about that. Continue saying "it's okay, everyone makes mistakes" when they were completely ignorant towards the rules of the road. It's cool. Let's all do 320 knots tomorrow in a show of solidarity for incompetence!

Dude you crack me up. While I certainly agree that mistakes are dumb and should not be tolerated, it is the repetition of such mistakes that makes one a bad pilot. Nobody here has enough info to hang this guy do we? I normally try to stay away from your antics...but you reeled me in on this one.

Next time you confess to a mistake, I will be sure to show how you are a danger to society and your licenses shall be quickly ripped up. Oh wait, I forgot, you are perfect right?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

I forget that not all of us strive to do the best job possible.

Sorry about that. Continue saying "it's okay, everyone makes mistakes" when they were completely ignorant towards the rules of the road. It's cool. Let's all do 320 knots tomorrow in a show of solidarity for incompetence!

Is this directed towards me?

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by bike21

Dude you crack me up. While I certainly agree that mistakes are dumb and should not be tolerated, it is the repetition of such mistakes that makes one a bad pilot. Nobody here has enough info to hang this guy do we? I normally try to stay away from your antics...but you reeled me in on this one.

Next time you confess to a mistake, I will be sure to show how you are a danger to society and your licenses shall be quickly ripped up. Oh wait, I forgot, you are perfect right?

What you and Ian are failing to notice here is, it wasn't a mistake, it was disregard for a rule THEY KNOW and a willful act to break that rule when a simple conservative attitude would have kept them SAFE and LEGAL. This wasn't a situation of not understanding a complex rule or anything.

Maybe DC3 should take some time off from here and read the regs, might do us all some good.

[Ian J]

What you are failing to notice is that from everything dc3flyer wrote, it was NOT a "willful act to break that rule." They did not cross 10k and decide "what the hell, let's just keep the speed up cause we're late!"

From his perspective:

- He knew the 250 under under 10k rule
- He relied on the captain's judgment
- It seems he didn't query the captain about it at the time (lesson learned I assume)
- The captain admitted to messing up

I don't see willful negligence, I see an f-up they admitted to, learned from, and are going to fix.

The horses are pretty high around here these days.

And you know what? The lesson here isn't "read your regs, you unprofessional slacker!" This is actually a great lesson in CRM. Any new, young SIC in a complex aircraft has a significant challenge when it comes to relying on the experience of a far more experienced PIC. I'm not sure what CRM classes are like in the civilian world, but if they are anything like the military you probably learn about different scenarios in which an SIC's over-reliance in the PIC's experience caused an accident. Even armed with this knowledge, it is still VERY difficult for a new, un-experienced SIC to question a more experienced pilot. Maybe every young stud on JC has no problem with it, but I highly, highly doubt it.

Dc3flyer learned from this, and he'll probably be a bit more vocal in the future.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by Ian J

What you are failing to notice is that from everything dc3flyer wrote, it was NOT a "willful act to break that rule." They did not cross 10k and decide "what the hell, let's just keep the speed up cause we're late!"

From his perspective:

- He knew the 250 under under 10k rule
- He relied on the captain's judgment
- It seems he didn't query the captain about it at the time (lesson learned I assume)
- The captain admitted to messing up

I don't see willful negligence, I see an f-up they admitted to, learned from, and are going to fix.

The horses are pretty high around here these days.

And you know what? The lesson here isn't "read your regs, you unprofessional slacker!" This is actually a great lesson in CRM. Any new, young SIC in a complex aircraft has a significant challenge when it comes to relying on the experience of a far more experienced PIC. I'm not sure what CRM classes are like in the civilian world, but if they are anything like the military you probably learn about different scenarios in which an SIC's over-reliance in the PIC's experience caused an accident. Even armed with this knowledge, it is still VERY difficult for a new, un-experienced SIC to question a more experienced pilot. Maybe every young stud on JC has no problem with it, but I highly, highly doubt it.

Dc3flyer learned from this, and he'll probably be a bit more vocal in the future.

Yours and my definition of willfull are different, I can agree to disagree. Again, I take issue with the lack of conservative thinking more than breaking the rule, we all mess up and break rules every day, it happens. They knew the rule and chose to ignore it, to me that is willful, they even had question in their minds as to the ability of ATC to grant them permission to go faster than 250 below 10, again instead of siding on the side of caution and conservatism (word?) they just went off blindly letting ATC drive the airplane.

Ian, are you really ok with that kind of thinking from the people you share the airspace with?? I believe you fly for Airnet, if I am wrong my apologies, if so, this is your job, not some weeked hobby that can be done half assed. We all need to be doing our jobs CORRECTLY, and when someone displays the attitude and method of thinking that is going to get others and themselves hurt, you are damn right they need to be called to the carpet and made to dance.

This would be a totally different conversation had the situation been that those two were distracted by something and noticed their speed and then made the attempt to fix it. THEN come here, tell the story and then ask for clarification on speed(s) below 10. That isn't the case, the rule was known, the rule was broken for no good reason AT ALL and neither pilot showed any kind of reasonable judgement, especially considering the implied total time of the captain.

[calcapt]

Aviation is a complex discipline with less than perfect players. I've done many things ONCE that I will never do again. The key is to learn the lesson and move on. Beating up on yourself will not accomplish anything positive. The 250/10000 lesson has been learned - leave it at that...

dc3flyer, even though you are a new FO, you may find yourself in a position of tutoring the captain from time to time. Don't be pressured into doing something you know to be wrong. Remember, professionalism isn't defined by the number of stripes on your epaulets or the seat you sit in.

[dc3flyer]

Okay guys, thanks for beating my head into the asphault. For the record, I have stated that I (me) am new to flying in a jet. I have less than 100 hours in any airplane that is capable of flying in excess of 250 knots. I know the under 250 below 10,000 rule. I didn't (did not) realize that ATC could not allow, or ask you to exceed that speed. It seems that there is also a regulation about altitudes east and west bound, yet ATC often clears me to an odd altitude momentarily when I am flying westbound. Does my accepting that clearnence make me just as ignorant as this?

I know it is one of my responsibilities as the co-pilot to assure the captain doesn't make mistakes. That is why there are two of us. When he didn't slow at 10,000, I assumed (yes, made an ass of me) that since we had been assigned a greater speed, that we were expected to maintain it. It is not a structural issue for this plane, so all is fine with the airplane. When qeustioned about it by ATC, the first words out of the captain's mouth were, "Oh shot, we're at 8,000!" He was obviously not thinking about it for whatever reason. Once on the ground, I asked him about when we should reduce our speed in this situation and he said we should have slowed down at 10,000 as normal regardless of previous requests from ATC. He knew it, and just f'ed up.

I was asked and asked often about speeds and speed restrictions during my training. I am just now at the point of putting that rote knowledge to practical work. At NO POINT in my training, did anyone ever aske me, "Well, when can you exceed 200 within 4 nm at or below 2500' in a Class C or D? When can you exceed 250 below 10,000'?" Until today, I thought the answer to both of those questions was with ATC approval. Obviously, I was wrong. Evidentally at least one more person was too, because Ian posted the regulation and thought that ATC could approve it. We have both been corrected.

I appreciate the knowledge of my captain (him telling me afterward, after he messed up, that we should have slowed) but I know there is an abundance of knowledge here, so I posted the question. I appreciate the "corrective action" I have recieved for it, as well as exactly what I was looking for... somewhere that expounds on the regulation as we read it in Part 91 (The controller response from Omdahl).

Now I know the answer to my question so I can assure it doesn't happen again and maybe more people may have learned from my mistake, error, ignorance, or complete disregard for regulations, whatever you want to call it.

[Snuggle]

Hey man we all make stupid mistakes. I agree with calcapt, we learn from it and move on. It's unfortunate that as pilots we are so quick to throw each other into a fire. Seriously folks, keep it professional and constructive. No need to try and get all high and mighty on a fellow aviator.

[Snuggle]

Originally Posted by Ian J

And you know what? The lesson here isn't "read your regs, you unprofessional slacker!" This is actually a great lesson in CRM. Any new, young SIC in a complex aircraft has a significant challenge when it comes to relying on the experience of a far more experienced PIC. I'm not sure what CRM classes are like in the civilian world, but if they are anything like the military you probably learn about different scenarios in which an SIC's over-reliance in the PIC's experience caused an accident. Even armed with this knowledge, it is still VERY difficult for a new, un-experienced SIC to question a more experienced pilot. Maybe every young stud on JC has no problem with it, but I highly, highly doubt it.

Well said Ian.

[higney85]

not to offend anybody but...
- The 250/1000 rule is not a difficult one to know/understand/implement.
- Common sense should also be applied. "Keep your speed up" on a 10 mile final does not mean go 250 (if you are currently at 200), it does not mean do Vmmo, it requires common sense.

That being said....
- I have flown with 20,000hr CA's who (on day 4) are doing 290KIAS through 10,300 ( I say "speed") and they realize "s*it" and slow it down but do cross 10K at 260ish. They forget, I have forgotten- it happens! But you fill out the ASAP report and you figure out ways for it to NOT happen again. Personally whenever its my leg and I am given an altitude of 10,000 or below I bug 250 on the speed. This requires me to use the VS in the decent and keeps me in the loop as to "why am I not at 250 when I have it bugged?" As I cross 11,000 heading down I pull the thrust to idle, VS 1000fpm down, the plane slows, and I cross at 250/10000. If I don't bug the speed I am more likely to forget. Your results may vary. Nobody is perfect- look at 90% of the accidents!


Sorry to come off as an ass but people make mistakes, but instead of excuses- you need solutions, and your results will ALWAYS vary!

Fly Safe

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

So the other day we were flying into an undisclosed airport. The Center controller advised us around FL240 (in a descent) to maintain 300 knots for spacing. He then proceeded to hand us off to another Center controller who handed us off to an Approach controller. By this time we were level at 8,000' and still maintaining 300 knots. After a few minutes, the Approach controller called us and said we were showing 320 knots across the ground and asked if we had a HUGE tailwind. I advised him we were "assigned" 300 knots and he couldn't believe it.

My question in: Should we have slowed down to 250 at 10,000' as normal, or should we have maintained 300 as we were asked?




Nothing else was said except "resume normal speed", so I am not worried about any actions, I just am new to the jet experience so this confused me a little.

Ok, now the story(ies) are changing a little bit. Your first post, you are level at 300 knots at 8k, that requires pushing the power up to maintain 300 knots from a descent. In your last post your Capt looked up and "realized" you were at 300 knots, something doesn't jive or you were descending at 500 fpm from 240 to 8000. If your latter story is the correct version, they hey mistakes happen, I've done it got at least 3 t-shirts, but the first account paints the "cowboy" picture, to me anyway.

Your statement about your training and being asked when you CAN exceed set speed limits raises a red flag. No one is going to spoon feed you the answers, you need to dig into the books, read accident reports ASK questions, etc. Of course after my tounge lashing you probably think you shouldn't ask questions . You are a pilot in that airplane just like the guy next to you, regardless of seat, if something don't look right SPEAK UP! If you don't know, SPEAK UP, when in doubt go conservative and spend 2 more minutes in the air. But for crying out loud, don't EVER EVER let ATC drive the airplane and don't EVER EVER EVER do something against your gut feeling.

Being new sucks, you constantly feel behind the 8 ball and think you have nothing to bring to the table, WRONG, do whatever it takes to be ahead of the 8 ball and you have tons to bring to the table.

[dc3flyer]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Ok, now the story(ies) are changing a little bit. Your first post, you are level at 300 knots at 8k, that requires pushing the power up to maintain 300 knots from a descent. In your last post your Capt looked up and "realized" you were at 300 knots, something doesn't jive or you were descending at 500 fpm from 240 to 8000. If your latter story is the correct version, they hey mistakes happen, I've done it got at least 3 t-shirts, but the first account paints the "cowboy" picture, to me anyway.

I never said anything in the original post (story) about my captain looking up and realizing we were at 300 knots. What the problem boiled down to, is that he wasn't thinking about us descending though 10,000. He is not a cowboy, he had set his heading bug to 300 in the descent when we were asked, and I guess he just fixated on that and lost sight of the fact that we were at 8,000. I am sure he had to push the throttle up to maintain altitude and 300. Sometimes you start thinking about other things. I don't know where his head was, but I do know now that I will definitely question him (or any other captain for that matter) if something like this happens again.

Your statement about your training and being asked when you CAN exceed set speed limits raises a red flag. No one is going to spoon feed you the answers, you need to dig into the books, read accident reports ASK questions, etc.

I guess my mis-understanding was the Administrator vs ATC wording. At first look (or 200th for that matter), you just kind of read the regs thinking you know what it says. Turns out I didn't. Now I do. Learning has happend because my actions will show it!!!

[mikecweb]

Sadly folks this story is just the tip of the iceberg. I can only imagine the stories to come with all of these dual cross countries in the flight levels happening every day.
Scary...very scary.

[charlie1017]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

Sadly folks this story is just the tip of the iceberg. I can only imagine the stories to come with all of these dual cross countries in the flight levels happening every day.
Scary...very scary.

You know the other day I learned here at JC about the whole Multi-Crew Pilot License plan: putting folks with virtually no PIC time in a jet! If you say there's a lot of dual X-C going on now, I can't even imagine what will happen if this makes it to the US!

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by charlie1017

You know the other day I learned here at JC about the whole Multi-Crew Pilot License plan: putting folks with virtually no PIC time in a jet!

That's becoming a very popular concept around here.

It's hard for somebody that got hired on as a (almost) a student pilot to think any other way. They will defend it to the death.

[Fox Xray]

Wow... this is some thread, took me about 15 minutes to read through it... LOL.

As a controller I cannot clear an A/C to exceed 250 knots below 10K, an exception is when they are more then 12nm offshore (more on that later).

Obviously in the case of an emergency or something similar that is not true. A few weeks back I had an A/C declare a medical emergency, pilot had a passenger that needed immediate medical attention. I cleared him direct to the airport, speed his discretion, I basically told him to do what you need to do to try and save this person.

You would be surprised how many pilots bust the speed as in the situation in the original post. Now... I have no way to see airspeed, I only see ground speed. As long as the speed I show is similar to the other A/C I consider it good.

I work sectors where I have to feed approach A/C descending out of FL's to below 10k; as a personal technique I usually clear the pilot to cross the approach fix at 250 knots right before I ship them when I have them speed restricted. In the case presented here I would have the A/C speed restricted (the speed 300 would be noted in the 4th line of my data block) and following approach taking the handoff I would clear the A/C ... cross XXXXX at 250 knots, contact approach XXX.XX. The reason is twofold, first I ensure I am feeding approach according the the LOA and second it's a reminder to the flight crew.

The 7110.65 states that 250 below 10K does not apply to offshore A/C (more then 12nm). There was a post on this forum a while back where the poster had a link to a letter from a FAA procedures office saying that at no time can A/C break 250 below 10K regardless of 12nm offshore. As long as it is still in the 7110.65 I consider it legal. The international flight crews (foreign and domestic) all seem to know about this rule, they will routinely break 250 below 10K until they reach the 12nm area.

I've seen 747-400's to ERJ's blow this type of restriction... it happens. When something like this happens and there is no harm I chalk it up to a good lesson learned.

[Polarbear]

I was jumpseating on a Q400 a couple months ago that was instructed to maintain 280 knots. This same question came up and they both agreed to hold 280 knots. They held that speed until 5,000 ft.

To those that criticize without being constructive:

Be careful about criticizing others. S*#@ happens. It is over dramatizing stuff like this which is a big reason our industry (and country for that matter) is getting so *!#ked up. You are no better than a news reporter for blowing this out of proportion. I pray you stay perfect your entire career.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by Polarbear

I was jumpseating on a Q400 a couple months ago that was instructed to maintain 280 knots. This same question came up and they both agreed to hold 280 knots. They held that speed until 5,000 ft.

I have no problem with somebody making a mistake and forgetting to slow through 250. I've done it before. Heck, I did it about 3 days ago. Out of about 8000 feet I realized I was still doing 300 knots. I slowed, filed an ASAP later that night, and that was the end of it.

What I do have a problem with is people not knowing a simple reg like no faster then 250 below 10. There are plenty of more confusing and more obscure regs that I could see just not knowing. But something as basic and as common as that, a reg that those of us flying a jet or big turbo prop use pretty much everyday we go above 10,000 feet, I don't understand how a FO, let alone a captain could not know.

This story has been told two ways. In the first version they thought (and discussed) that the higher speed assignment trumped slowing below 10 just like the Horizon crew Polarbear talked about. I don't get how somebody could think that. It is a basic part of high performance airplane flying. In the second version they just forgot to slow and caught it when asked by ATC. Sure. That happens all the time. No harm no foul.

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by Polarbear

To those that criticize without being constructive:

Be careful about criticizing others. S*#@ happens. It is over dramatizing stuff like this which is a big reason our industry (and country for that matter) is getting so *!#ked up. You are no better than a news reporter for blowing this out of proportion. I pray you stay perfect your entire career.

I think trying to hold pilots to high standards isn't why this industry and country are so effed up. I think it's effed up that there are pilots out there lacking knowledge of basic flight rules. Having a high time captain is no excuse for lack of knowledge. Mistakes do happen. Incompetency should not be forgiven.

[ghogue]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

The 7110.65 states that 250 below 10K does not apply to offshore A/C (more then 12nm). There was a post on this forum a while back where the poster had a link to a letter from a FAA procedures office saying that at no time can A/C break 250 below 10K regardless of 12nm offshore. As long as it is still in the 7110.65 I consider it legal. The international flight crews (foreign and domestic) all seem to know about this rule, they will routinely break 250 below 10K until they reach the 12nm area.

Fox Xray,
I was the person who posted the link about the 250/10,000 beyond 12nm from shore. Actually it wasn't from an FAA procedures office, but an interpretation of the regs from the FAA Chief Counsel's office. I realize you are required to operate from the 7110.65, but that isn't regulation and a legal interpretation essentially is. This (the offshore thing) is not a big issue for me, but I believe everyone should be aware that they are responsible for complying with the regulations even if a controller clears them otherwise. To quote the 7110.65 for those who are not controllers,
"NOTE-
Pilots are required to abide by CFRs or other applicable regulations regardless of the application of any procedure or minima in this order."

The confusing part for most people I believe, is that not only does the 7110.65 allow for this type of operations beyond the 12nm limit, but so does the AIM and the Instrument Procedures Handbook. According to the letter, the statements in these manuals/Orders are under review and will be changed or the reg will be changed.

gary