Cleared into Bravo at 2AM

[sdfcvoh]

So ... last night I'm heading South from Utah, with my path taking me straight over top of PHX on my way to TUS. Its 2AM, and I'm on flight following. When I get handed off to PHX approach, ATC says, "Maintain 9500 (where I was already), and advise me of any changes in altitude." It is so quiet on the radio you could hear a pin drop. 25 Miles out.

I figured, wrongly, that since it's the middle of the night, and there is absolutely no one else out, he's cleared me into Bravo without the normal protocol. Then at 17 miles (I know - I know) I got a little concerned, and called him up to double check. His reply was, "Its a little late for that, don't you think?"

Now, I could have climbed to 10000 before the ring, and not been in his airspace at all. I also could have called him up again before the 20 mile ring and checked (yes - probably what I should have done.) With it being as it was; quiet, late, and having been advised by him that I should hold 9500 and advise if I'm going to change, I took on an assumption that probably could have gotten me in trouble. Nothing became of it, he even was cordial when I said good night as he passed me off to the (wrong) frequency for ABQ on the other side (which I think was his little payback.)

Would you (dear reader) have done about the same thing I did if you were in the exact situation I was last night?

[kfour]

I have been in that situation with Cleveland approach before, and all I can say is:

If you're operating under VFR and you dont hear that magic phrase "Cleared into the class bravo airspace", you absolutely need to get clarification.

I asked the cleveland controller if I was cleared though, he replied that he had forgot about me, and promptly gave me my clearance though the Bravo. Never take anything for granted when operating VFR.

[amorris311]

phx has the dumbest bravo airspace in my opinion. that is why they are going to change it on oct 25. the new ceiling is going to be 9000. also at 2am i dont think they are seeing much traffic. in a couple of weeks i am going up there to shoot approaches for my instrument. the tower guys are pretty cool at night too. i still think it is pretty cool that you transitioned your first bravo. thats awesome!

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by sdfcvoh

I also could have called him up again before the 20 mile ring and checked (yes - probably what I should have done.)

The 20 mile ring?

Huh?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by sdfcvoh

Would you (dear reader) have done about the same thing I did if you were in the exact situation I was last night?

Although it's prudent to hear "Cleared into the Class B", there is no specific requirement that you hear that language or that ATC use it, although the ATC Handbook suggests it as an example.

The NTSB has ruled that if you have an assigned heading and altitude that takes you into the Class B, that's an implicit clearance into the airspace. Sounds like, however, you had the altitude, but no heading, so arguably you could have dodged the airspace if you had wanted to.

The fact that he assigned you an altitude still suggests that he intended you to enter the Class B airspace, because ATC lacks the authority to assign altitudes to VFR aircraft in Class E airspace. Still, I would have said (and do a lot) "Verify Class B Clearance for Cessna XXXXXX".

[Milesar]

I would much rather hear "Its a little late for that, don't you think?" than "advise when ready to copy a number"!

[sdfcvoh]

Originally Posted by Milesar

I would much rather hear "Its a little late for that, don't you think?" than "advise when ready to copy a number"!

You bet!

[sdfcvoh]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

The 20 mile ring?

Huh?

Okay - maybe I'm missing something. I've always been under the impression that there is a specific "Cleared into Bravo" required prior to 20nm.

[amorris311]

all i think you need is to be in positive radio communication and be cleared to enter. you can fly right along the edge if you want all day long.


you should have taken some photos. good times though.

[clestudentpilot]

Actually you need a clearance for Class B, you only need radio contact for Class C and Class D, so you do need a specific clearance to enter the bravo, except for what tgrayson said, then it is implicit

[amorris311]

how do you think you are going to get clearance if you are not in radio communication? also i am pretty sure i said positive radio communication and be cleared to enter. if you want to get super technical you also need a mode c transponder once you hit the veil.

[PanJet]

Originally Posted by sdfcvoh

.....When I get handed off to PHX approach, ATC says, "Maintain 9500 (where I was already), and advise me of any changes in altitude." ....

I have a bit of a question about this statement. I've never heard them say maintain an altitude and then say "advise of any changes in altitude." It's kind of a contradiction, because they're telling you to stay at an altitude, but still giving you freedom to change. Usually what I've heard is "maintain VFR, advice of any altitude changes."

Anyway, as to the Class B question, I've always been of the belief that you must have an explicit clearance to enter Class B VFR. I could be wrong, and I'm honestly too tired to look it up right now, but I would never assume you're cleared unless it's Class C or Class D and you're in contact with ATC. If you're ever in doubt about anything, it's always best to ask. Never assume. Glad it worked out okay.

[88MPH]

91.131 Ops in Class B Airspace

"The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an acft in that area."

Class B - Must hear "cleared..."

Class C - Must hear "roger" or something to that affect, and maintain radio contact.

Class D - See class C

Class E - uhhh ...

Class G - WGAFF?

[88MPH]

That being said, I did the exact same thing in the exact same airspace as Scott. PHX wasn't busy, I caught myself, asked if I was cleared (knowing I wasn't) and he said, "Oh yeah, you were cleared ..."

No sweat.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by sdfcvoh

Okay - maybe I'm missing something. I've always been under the impression that there is a specific "Cleared into Bravo" required prior to 20nm.

Nope. No such thing. Each class B is tailored to meet the needs of the area. There is no "structured" 20 NM ring surrounding any class B. You only need to hear those special words seconds prior to entering.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by PanJet

I have a bit of a question about this statement. I've never heard them say maintain an altitude and then say "advise of any changes in altitude." It's kind of a contradiction, because they're telling you to stay at an altitude, but still giving you freedom to change. Usually what I've heard is "maintain VFR, advice of any altitude changes."

I've heard this several times and in several places from both center and terminal controllers.

[clestudentpilot]

Sorry amorris311, I should have known better than to post something so late, I was tired. I didn't see where you said clearance, I only saw the positive radio communication. So my bad, my post contributed nothing Next time I should probably learn to actually try reading what I'm replying to, but knowing myself, that will probably never happen

[skidz]

Originally Posted by sdfcvoh

I figured, wrongly, that since it's the middle of the night, and there is absolutely no one else out, he's cleared me into Bravo without the normal protocol. Then at 17 miles (I know - I know) I got a little concerned, and called him up to double check. His reply was, "Its a little late for that, don't you think?"

Busted class B, you rock man!

[88MPH]

Originally Posted by skidz

Busted class B, you rock man!

What's the lesson learned here? Bust Class B and nothing happens

[kevmor99]

On my private checkride the examiner asked me about Class B, and specifically asked what I would do if I was told to fly a heading and altitude that headed me right for it, but didn't hear "cleared into...". He said a friend of his was recently busted for entering class B on a heading they assigned him. Seems like they'd rather have you avoid class B even if they direct you towards it (and if you can't clarify), if they don't give you the clearance.

Originally Posted by tgrayson

The NTSB has ruled that if you have an assigned heading and altitude that takes you into the Class B, that's an implicit clearance into the airspace. Sounds like, however, you had the altitude, but no heading, so arguably you could have dodged the airspace if you had wanted to.

The fact that he assigned you an altitude still suggests that he intended you to enter the Class B airspace, because ATC lacks the authority to assign altitudes to VFR aircraft in Class E airspace. Still, I would have said (and do a lot) "Verify Class B Clearance for Cessna XXXXXX".

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by kevmor99

He said a friend of his was recently busted for entering class B on a heading they assigned him. Seems like they'd rather have you avoid class B even if they direct you towards it (and if you can't clarify), if they don't give you the clearance.

Without documentation, anecdotes aren't reliable guides because critical details are often lost. Seems unlikely to me that a controller would give you a heading and altitude that he intends to take you into Class B and then suddenly change his mind.

You need to have a clearance to enter Class B, but there is no description of the language that constitutes a clearance. For instance, "Taxi to runway 18" is a clearance, even though it doesn't contain the word "cleared." "Please enter the Class B airspace" would likewise be a clearance.

The heading/altitude thing would depend on context and I could envision ambiguous circumstances. The whole issue came up as a defense from a violation, so I don't recommend depending on it as a standard operating procedure. However, the ruling is available to you if there's a dispute.

I do think that hearing "cleared into" is the safest policy, but if the pilot and controller both forget when the intent is obvious (which happens a lot), the odds of repercussions are low.

[JJ429PA]

To me, this calls back to the famous decision aid "How will this look on an NTSB report?" If I don't hear "cleared into Bravo", I verify it. You could interpret the FARs all day long, but theres just no reason to cruise into Bravo thinking "I'm pretty sure I'm good...", when keying the mic for 2 seconds could eliminate any doubt. The fewer question marks, the better.

[exleardriver]

Originally Posted by PanJet

I have a bit of a question about this statement. I've never heard them say maintain an altitude and then say "advise of any changes in altitude." It's kind of a contradiction, because they're telling you to stay at an altitude, but still giving you freedom to change. Usually what I've heard is "maintain VFR, advice of any altitude changes."

most likely to hear the language, "maintain vfr at or above/below 9,500" although they may assign temporarily an altitude for collision avoidance/separation, and then after the conflict is resolved return with "resume vfr, altitude your discretion".