New ATC pay?

[Elfmaze]

Trying to understand pay scales and training pay advances. I'm off to OKCity at the end of the month. and those two months are going to drain my savings account. So i need to be very carefull with what my expected salary will be so i can plan out paying off the training debt i will accrue.

I got assigned to a level 6 tower making %18.85 locality. so after Oaklahoma i will be bringing down 38K. What i don't know is how long it will take normally for getting checked out. and what salarys i can expect when i have finished OJT? I have seen salary charts that say the min is 44K and max is 57K for CPC, But those numbers don't seem to match up with what i'm hering from people getting to possitions.

[TeddyG]

Originally Posted by Elfmaze

Trying to understand pay scales and training pay advances. I'm off to OKCity at the end of the month. and those two months are going to drain my savings account. So i need to be very carefull with what my expected salary will be so i can plan out paying off the training debt i will accrue.

I got assigned to a level 6 tower making %18.85 locality. so after Oaklahoma i will be bringing down 38K. What i don't know is how long it will take normally for getting checked out. and what salarys i can expect when i have finished OJT? I have seen salary charts that say the min is 44K and max is 57K for CPC, But those numbers don't seem to match up with what i'm hering from people getting to possitions.

When you achieve CPC status. Your pay jumps to the minimum of the pay band for you level facility. https://employees.faa.gov/

Level 6 CPC=45,475+locality 18.85% =54,047

Educated guess, your going to PNE in Philadelphia?


Every year your base will increase 2% or so until you reach the max. At that rate it will take 15+ years to reach it. Welcome to new pay scale.

[Elfmaze]

lol, yep guess i gave away a bit too much info on that one. But yes PNE. Finantially wise i was hoping for at least a level 8. Philly rent is going to take me for a grand, and loans another grand. Its going to be tight trying to eat for a few years

[surreal1221]

So long as guys continue to say yes when the FAA calls, this new pay scale won't be going anywhere.

I wonder when people will finally stop doing the self-devaluing of their careers.

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

So long as guys continue to say yes when the FAA calls, this new pay scale won't be going anywhere.

I wonder when people will finally stop doing the self-devaluing of their careers.

I'm still looking forward to hearing about how much money you make at your first aviation job.

[surreal1221]

You got it. $16K a year, as an Aviation meteorologist with the Air Force.

How long have you been following, or involved in the current embattled NATCA / controller pay contract issue? Over 5 years? Anywhere close?

The FAA is banking on guys who are clueless to the work environment to come and say Yes. I say, knock yourselves out guys. Really, you'll be knocking yourselves out cold.

[clestudentpilot]

Congratulations on doing what you want to do Elfmaze. People going into a career need to be encouraged, not slammed by others. Your happiness is most important, and money does not buy anyone happiness. I know there will be a few select people on this board who will come up with a million and one reasons why I am wrong and they are right, but wuite honestly, would it kill any of you to offer words of encouragement instead of negative words for those going into a nobel career. These are the same people that vote for a minimum wage increase, but then complain when their employers want to pay people an arbitrary minimum figure. I'm off my soap box now...bring it on everyone and tell me how intelligent you are and how stupid I am because I know there are a few of you that are just dying to do that right now as you read this

[surreal1221]

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index....ic,3561.0.html

You'll have to register to download the stream. . .BUT. . .when Veterans like this guy says "...I couldn't have been more lucky to be walking out the door right now," that holds a lot of weight with me. As a CTI student, who, started the program being told you'll be making X amount within 5 years (as contracted), then to get near graduation - only to see that the FAA has now reduced controller pay by 30% at a minimum, some locations seeing a 45% reduction in pay for the B-scale.

You got to be kidding me. Who is going to be happy after investing their own money, for an education the FAA said you had to have if you wanted to come and work for us. . .only now to reduce pay significantly.

You got to be kidding me X 2.

So you want me to tell these guys to be all nice and happy making 15k at OKC. . .when it was 30k before. You want me to tell these guys to be all nice and happy when they are now going to top out at around 80-90k a year, when previous generations were topping out well into the six figure mark?

So yeah - be happy. . .but don't be that guy running around the radar room happy he is making 25k a year. You'll lose friends quicker than you ever have.

clestudentpilot. . .for you to assume people will call you stupid and want to go after you in a nice long argument here on an online forum shows a lot. Welcome to JC, where respectable conversations can be had without calling individuals stupid.

If I was some ignorant twat running around, I highly doubt any of the FAA controllers here on JC would agree with me in any of my statements, but history has shown that not to be the case. So, while I won't call you stupid. I'll simply call you a bit naive and uneducated in the battle that has been going on for far too long between a bargaining group who negotiated in good faith, and an employer who just wants slaves, and not quality slaves at that. Take that for what you will. But please, just once - educate yourself through whatever means possible about the current environment.

NATCA doesn't need any more FAA cheerleaders. They need guys who are willing to fight for what is right, and stand up against an unhealthy work environment.

[RABIRZA69]

Surreal, You seem pretty well educated on this matter, What are your predictions that the contract will soon turn around for the better? And that this is just a "lowpoint" for the agency? As you may or may not know, I have accepted employment as a controller and am still waiting on my class date.

[Elfmaze]

I would love to help the cause and say no. but is the cause goign to pay my 120K in student loans??? $960 a month for the next thirty years. May not have been the best decision looking back on it, but i've done it, i have my education, and about three months after saying no i would be bankrupt.

So before telling me i'm ruining the career for everyone else, why don't you concider the options some of us have at this point. And i don't care what people made before me. But i don't want to live in sub par appartments and peoples basements the rest of my life, driving around without insurance becasue i can't afford the $100 a month. Buying pasta four nights a week for dinner becasue its a dollar a box. And constantly being called by my student loan carriers because i couldn't make my full payment for the third month in a row. Trust me, i know what me options are, and right now this is my best bet

Plus i really like watching my planes land, been doing it since i was 8 at the local strip.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by RABIRZA69

Surreal, You seem pretty well educated on this matter, What are your predictions that the contract will soon turn around for the better? And that this is just a "lowpoint" for the agency? As you may or may not know, I have accepted employment as a controller and am still waiting on my class date.

I'm optimistic that something will change for the better when the wicked Witch of the west finally leaves. Unfortunately the Bush administration, in their anti-labor ways, will more than likely appoint someone else who has the same philosophies.

With that being said, I am optimistic, BUT. . .I'm not optimistic that any change will occur for the better until after a change in the executive branch. Of course, I've said it before. . .when the time comes, remember who the AFL-CIO and NATCA endorse. While you may not agree with every policy the individual has, certainly you can agree with their pro-labor policies that will only help the CBA environment.

Certainly take the job. I won't suggest to anyone to turn down the initial offer, but know though that you're walking into a boiling pot that could potentially explode at a moments notice. Also, remember that it is your hands, brain, and livelihood on the line should something go wrong - it's not your supervisor, or the administrators fault. They love scapegoats.

You'll do fine, and you'll do really well if you show your other peers (CPC's) at your facility that you do end up going to that you're on their side, and that you understand the challenges that are currently on the table. Make that known, and you'll be welcome to the brotherhood real quickly.

Elfmaze,

So you have 120K in debt, for a job, that at the time, 120k in debt was worth the investment. It is obvious to me, that 120k in debt for this job (ATC) is no longer a worthy investment. Hopefully you see that too, and will fight hard, and very pro-actively with NATCA to improve the conditions. To where future generations won't get the shaft as well.

[RABIRZA69]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

I'm optimistic that something will change for the better when the wicked Witch of the west finally leaves. Unfortunately the Bush administration, in their anti-labor ways, will more than likely appoint someone else who has the same philosophies.

With that being said, I am optimistic, BUT. . .I'm not optimistic that any change will occur for the better until after a change in the executive branch. Of course, I've said it before. . .when the time comes, remember who the AFL-CIO and NATCA endorse. While you may not agree with every policy the individual has, certainly you can agree with their pro-labor policies that will only help the CBA environment.

Certainly take the job. I won't suggest to anyone to turn down the initial offer, but know though that you're walking into a boiling pot that could potentially explode at a moments notice. Also, remember that it is your hands, brain, and livelihood on the line should something go wrong - it's not your supervisor, or the administrators fault. They love scapegoats.

You'll do fine, and you'll do really well if you show your other peers (CPC's) at your facility that you do end up going to that you're on their side, and that you understand the challenges that are currently on the table. Make that known, and you'll be welcome to the brotherhood real quickly.

Elfmaze,

So you have 120K in debt, for a job, that at the time, 120k in debt was worth the investment. It is obvious to me, that 120k in debt for this job (ATC) is no longer a worthy investment. Hopefully you see that too, and will fight hard, and very pro-actively with NATCA to improve the conditions. To where future generations won't get the shaft as well.

Well said Surreal, but without getting into a huge political discussion I have to say that one of the major problems with this countries current voting public, is that not enough people vote for their own self interests. I have a governemnt job, I want a government thats gonna give me a raise. As far as scapegoats are concerned, thats not really much different then any other job out there. Feb 14th at jetblue was pretty rough, guess where the fingers were pointed initially

[surreal1221]

Exactly. . .people need to remember about #1, and #1's family, house, car payments, and livlihood(s).

[Elfmaze]

Any way didn't want this thread to get political. lets save that for another time. Thanks for the explanation

[queeno]

Originally Posted by Elfmaze

I would love to help the cause and say no. but is the cause goign to pay my 120K in student loans??? $960 a month for the next thirty years. May not have been the best decision looking back on it, but i've done it, i have my education, and about three months after saying no i would be bankrupt.

So before telling me i'm ruining the career for everyone else, why don't you concider the options some of us have at this point. And i don't care what people made before me. But i don't want to live in sub par appartments and peoples basements the rest of my life, driving around without insurance becasue i can't afford the $100 a month. Buying pasta four nights a week for dinner becasue its a dollar a box. And constantly being called by my student loan carriers because i couldn't make my full payment for the third month in a row. Trust me, i know what me options are, and right now this is my best bet

Plus i really like watching my planes land, been doing it since i was 8 at the local strip.

dont get me wrong dude but WTF were you thinking.$120,000 student loan to pay up for a job that the FFA is now takeing folks off the street with no training.you think watching airplanes is worth $120,000 loan,and what if you get assigned to a center or a tracon with no windows.you better hope that they send you to a $95000 a year fac because if you go to a level 6,7,8,9 you are gonna be eating noodles for a long time. the problem is that you kids belived the FFAs BS about the money,yea thay told you about all that cash you would be making to get you to pay for your own training when all along they knew that the were gonna screw you with the IWR (imposed work rules).ive got 573 days to go and if i could retire today id go,and iam one of those high six figure guys.another thing to think about is WHEN the atc system is contracted out and it will happen maybe 5 ,10 years but its gonna happen, the shame is that ATC is the greatest job in the world working for the worst people, but remember its just a job nothing more .it took me 20 years to figure that out.good luck

[Elfmaze]

I started out as a pilot, and i was 16 when making these decisions. We were told that controlers were making an average of 120K in higher facilities. That would have made the job worht the education i was going for. Unfortunatly you can't predict the market and you need to live with the decisions that you made.

[RABIRZA69]

Hey Surreal, in your infinite wisdom, with Blakely on her way out, do you think that this is step 1 for the controller benefits to get where they belong.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by RABIRZA69

Hey Surreal, in your infinite wisdom, with Blakely on her way out, do you think that this is step 1 for the controller benefits to get where they belong.

No, unfortunately not.

The next administrator . . .along with this new tool that has put into place to run the ATO (a previous Captain at a certain airline, granted, also a previous proud ALPA member), will practice the same policies.

It's a much larger issue than just FAA. The administrator, in assistance with other government agencies, were tired of seeing controllers getting paid for the actual job that they do, and wanted them to be paid in accordance with other government standards for other jobs (95% of which require sitting behind at desk from 9-5pm).

So, with that said. . .I don't think it'll change. It'll be a good step when this whole administration is removed. Then, unfortunately, someone will have to come in and take care of fixing all of the broken stuff. Loads of fun right?

Originally Posted by Elfmaze

I started out as a pilot, and i was 16 when making these decisions. We were told that controlers were making an average of 120K in higher facilities. That would have made the job worht the education i was going for. Unfortunatly you can't predict the market and you need to live with the decisions that you made.

Well, we make a lot of silly decisions at 16 that we regret, or wish we didn't make. Standing by them doesn't necessarily mean that they were the correct ones.

The market is controlled by people who either accept, or refuse employment. As simple as that.