ATC CTI vs Military: Questions/info.

[CampbellsChunkySoupra]

i was reading in this thread about the differences between military and cti ATC positions. it appeared as if there are ALOT more opportunities with military training vs CTI.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/ask-air...9-how-atc.html


Here are some general comparison questions that i have:

-Starting Pay for Military Trained ATC's?
-Starting Pay by the FAA for CTI Trained ATC's?
-Length of training for Military Trained ATC's?
-Length of training for CTI trained ATC's?
-If you become an ATC by the Military, are u qualified to be hired by the FAA?
-Does the Air National Guard have training and positions for ATC's?
-The Air Force has ATC positions, how long must u be in the AF before u can get out?
-Do ATC's usually ever get called up to go overseas for military conflicts?
-Does the AF just assign u to an airport?
-Aviation Management is the degree at Miami-Dade that i am looking into, what other jobs would this qualify me for other then ATC if i ended up getting it.

thanks for taking the time to clear up any of the questions i had. i appreciate it.

Tyler

[icephalt24]

[quote=CampbellsChunkySoupra;639358]i was reading in this thread about the differences between military and cti ATC positions. it appeared as if there are ALOT more opportunities with military training vs CTI.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/ask-air...9-how-atc.html


Here are some general comparison questions that i have:

-Starting Pay for Military Trained ATC's?
-Starting Pay by the FAA for CTI Trained ATC's?

If you are asking what does the FAA pay a new military ATC v a new CTI grad upon hire, the answer is the same thing. If you are asking brand new FAA hires vs military folks just out of boot camp the answer is FAA hires make $31,700.00 a year plus locality increase, overtime and night differental. Right out of boot camp military controllers make $14,147.20 The military ATCers may also get flight pay of some sort adding a couple hundred bucks a month and possibly combat / hazardous duty pay if they are in Iraq / Afghanistan, and I know they get on base housing and meals in the mess.
-Length of training for Military Trained ATC's?
In the 60's my dad trained for ATC in the Navy, took 16 weeks after boot camp. I know someone here knows something more up to date.
-Length of training for CTI trained ATC's?
CTI training takes however long it takes you to finish your degree...be it a year for a crash course AS or 5 years for a BS taken by someone trying to go it slow and pace themselves.
-If you become an ATC by the Military, are u qualified to be hired by the FAA?
As long as you get your CTO (control tower operator's certificate), yes. They'll likely put you in the FAA academy the same as the CTI and OTS hires if you got your CTO in the military and you'll spend however many weeks there depending on what kind of facility you get hired on to. If you don't get your CTO though, you aren't going to be able to apply for the FAA directly. I had a former AF controller who never ended up with his CTO after 5 years and had to go the CTI route to get hired on as other than OTS (this was prior to OTS being an option)
-Does the Air National Guard have training and positions for ATC's?
yup.
-The Air Force has ATC positions, how long must u be in the AF before u can get out?
I think the standard contract is 4 years active, 4 years reserve with another option being 6 years active and 2 reserve. All that is barring stoploss. I flirted with the option enough to have a general idea. Again, I'm sure someone here knows better than me.
-Do ATC's usually ever get called up to go overseas for military conflicts?
Civilian controllers? No. Though I hear if you have the guts there is fat contract money to be made out there in say Kabul or Bagdad tower.
Military? Don't know how common it is. Again someone here knows more than me, but the above mentioned AF controller spent two years in Afghanistan and my dad spent 4 years FACing his way through 'Nam. Does it happen, sure you're in the military. Are you more likely to be called up to go to war than the average grunt? Couldn't tell ya.
-Does the AF just assign u to an airport?
Any military branch will assign a controller to an air base, carrier or what have you. How well you do in your MOS / class A or whatever you want to call it class will give you a leg up in requesting your post normally. Best in class gets first pick on openings normally.
-Aviation Management is the degree at Miami-Dade that i am looking into, what other jobs would this qualify me for other then ATC if i ended up getting it.
My BS in poly sci qualified me for nothing more than working for free in mayoral campaigns making campaign calls as far as my major field of study went. No degree is a magic bullet for success in one business or another regardless of what ANYONE tells you. That said, My Poly Sci degree from a state university translated into a decent paying insurance job every bit as much as the guy beside me who had a degree in business from a top tier university. What I'm getting at is just having a degree is a fallback. You aren't going to be an airport or airline executive with an undergraduate degree, but just having one will be enough for you to get hired on at someplace to make a decent living. Not a fun life, believe me, I took that for 18 months after college and ran screaming out the door. Cubicle life just isn't for me. At least though it is something to fall back on.

[CampbellsChunkySoupra]

wow, that is alot of information. thanks alot for taking the time to clear some of that up. im going to make a few phone calls to the recruiter around here and see what i can find out. you've answered alot of my quetsions.

id definably like to hear the military side of things from someone with first hand experience too.

can anyone clear up the FAA and their problems with ATC's? i have read that it has alot to do with not paying ATC's anything like they used to be paid. i also know that there are supposed to be several jobs available within the next 5 years or so. it's a shame that the FAA wont pay out what they are supposed to be paying.

[JimmyK]

Right out of boot camp military controllers make $14,147.20 The military ATCers may also get flight pay of some sort adding a couple hundred bucks a month and possibly combat / hazardous duty pay if they are in Iraq / Afghanistan, and I know they get on base housing and meals in the mess.

Mostly correct, Ive never seen any kind of flight pay, then again Im in the Marine Corps and we dont do too many special duty pay things so maybe the other branches do.

-Length of training for Military Trained ATC's?
In the 60's my dad trained for ATC in the Navy, took 16 weeks after boot camp. I know someone here knows something more up to date.

Well the Navy/USMC school is 16 weeks. Air Force is I think 6 Months or so. Not sure what the Army does. But that initial 16 weeks, or "A" School as we call it just gets your pink card and some time in some simulators. When you get to your station you still have YEARS of training ahead of you. Think of ATC as a trade such as an electreician or plumber. You go to school to learn the very basics, when your done with school your go into a sort of apprenticeship learning how to do your job. From there you move up the ladder into bigger and better things.

-The Air Force has ATC positions, how long must u be in the AF before u can get out?
I think the standard contract is 4 years active, 4 years reserve with another option being 6 years active and 2 reserve. All that is barring stoploss. I flirted with the option enough to have a general idea. Again, I'm sure someone here knows better than me.

Well the Marine's require a 5 yr AD contract, 3 yrs IRR to get guaranteed ATC. There are some guys who went in open contract and got ATC, so they only had a 4/4 commitment. Im sure the other branches are the same way or pretty close.

-Do ATC's usually ever get called up to go overseas for military conflicts?
Civilian controllers? No. Though I hear if you have the guts there is fat contract money to be made out there in say Kabul or Bagdad tower.
Military? Don't know how common it is.

In the Marines we get our fair share of deployments. ot as much as say the Infantry but we do deploy. If your selected to deploy, you go for 7 months and come back. There no set rotation like there is for other jobs. Theres none of that "Were going over for 6 months, home for 12 then back for another 6", we go when were needed. And as far as civilians going overseas. The civilians I work with are always talking about some contractor who pays like $90,000 for a 6 month contract some where in the middle east. I think its Saudi Arabia

-Does the AF just assign u to an airport?
Any military branch will assign a controller to an air base, carrier or what have you. How well you do in your MOS / class A or whatever you want to call it class will give you a leg up in requesting your post normally. Best in class gets first pick on openings normally.

When I went through A school the navy did the top in class gets first pick thing. The had a stack of orders to choose from and they went into a room, one by one, top in the class went first, and choose which set they wanted. Throw in some other variable such as the females werent allowed to take ship orders becasue there were too many females on ships. And it can really limit on where you get to go. The navy students in my class only had one shore station to choose from, 2 TACRON's and the rest were boats. Well the number one guy took the shore station. So the two females could only go to the TACRON's becasue the rest were boat orders and they werent allowed to take them. So the first girl got to choose only from east coast or west coast. In the green side we did things differently. They just came in one day and asked us where we wanted to go, East Coast, West Coast or overseas. I said west coast and here I am in North Carolina. Another Marine who got orders the same time I did asked for east coast and they sent him to Camp Pendlton, CA. Just goes to show they probably didnt take our choices into consideration.

If there ant other questions you have you can PM me. I love this job and am more than happy to help you.

[CampbellsChunkySoupra]

im on my break at work. ill definably have some more questions for u. thanks a bunch for responding. every little bit of homework i do now is gonna help out my choice. thanks!

[rickyrhodesii]

I'm active duty Air Force, so I'll give it too you from the AF side:

-Starting Pay for Military Trained ATC's?
This figure is based on your rank. Depending on a couple of factors (college credit, length of enlistment) you could enlist as an E1, E2, or E3.

Monthly pay is based on your rank. E1 pay is $1,301, E2 pay is $1,459 and E3 pay is $1,534. Most AF controllers also receive an extra allowance for food, (BAS) approximately $250 a month. And, if you live off base, you'll receive money for housing (BAH).

There is no other special duty pay for "line controllers." If you're watch supervisor qualified, you receive extra cash based on years in. Also, when you deploy, you'll make extra money depending on the location.

-Length of training for Military Trained ATC's?
After basic training, you'll go to Keesler AFB, in Biloxi MS for 16 weeks. As of now, you'll either train to become a radar or tower controller. A couple of years ago, you were trained in both, tower and radar.

But don't worry; you're not stuck as a tower or radar controller for the rest of your career. If your base has both, you can become dual certified. Or, if you move to another base, you might be placed in the tower/radar.

-If you become an ATC by the Military, are u qualified to be hired by the FAA?
Yes. CTO (control tower operator) or not, your "hire-able." I've seen a ton of guys with radar only experience and no CTO get picked up by the FAA. Recently, a fellow controller with not tower experience was hired on at Andrews Tower!

-The Air Force has ATC positions, how long must u be in the AF before u can get out?
A six year enlistment is the norm right now.

-Do ATC's usually ever get called up to go overseas for military conflicts?
Yes. But, you will not deploy until you're a qualified controller. I've been in over 6 years and I've only deployed once. You can always volunteer to go like i did, or you can just wait until you're called. Our rotations are generally 4 months, give or take a couple of weeks for transit time. If you want to know more, let me know. I can go into further detail.

-Does the AF just assign u to an airport?
(I'll just paste this from another thread.)
The AF is going to send you where they need you. It may be Cannon AFB in New Mexico or it could be Travis AFB in California.

There are a few positive points though. You fill out a "dream sheet" of 8 locations you'd like to go and the AF will try and match you to one of your preferences. No guarantee though.

Another option is an assignment swap. I can't remember the exact specifics, but after you receive your assignment in tech school you can swap with someone else if your graduation dates are within a month.

The last chance you have of getting the location of your choice is graduating top in your class. Generally the top in the class chooses where they'd like to go.

I'm with the others, i love this job and wouldn't trade it of anything!

[CampbellsChunkySoupra]

i just dont see how ~$1300/month will get u by each and every year. do the math and thats like $15k/year which is way less then what is required to live on. how do u do that? does the military take care of the rest of the things?

what kind of retirement benefits can u get if u do ur 6 years and then get out?

tell me about the air national guard.

thanks for all of the info so far guys!

[JimmyK]

Originally Posted by CampbellsChunkySoupra

i just dont see how ~$1300/month will get u by each and every year. do the math and thats like $15k/year which is way less then what is required to live on. how do u do that? does the military take care of the rest of the things?

Think of it this way, the military is your parents and your base pay is the allowance they give you. The already take care of your housing, either living free in base housing or receiving BAH to live out in town. You dont really have to pay for food, becasue your eating at the chowhall or receiving COMRATS. And the biggest thing the military offers is the free medical. What more do you need to survive really? No matter what you got a place to live, food in your belly and when your broken they fix you. For a young single person its a pretty good deal. Now trying to have a wife and a kid or two on that pay, thats something different.

[icephalt24]

Originally Posted by CampbellsChunkySoupra

i just dont see how ~$1300/month will get u by each and every year. do the math and thats like $15k/year which is way less then what is required to live on. how do u do that? does the military take care of the rest of the things?

what kind of retirement benefits can u get if u do ur 6 years and then get out?

tell me about the air national guard.

thanks for all of the info so far guys!

Jimmy is right, they pay for your housing and food. Realistically to start the FAA and military pay pretty much even out to roughly the same depending on where you live when you consider you aren't paying rent or for your meals in the military. After 4 months in the military you get a raise to 1,273.50 per month, then after you get promoted the first time it goes up to 1,427.40. Promotion to E3 say your second year of duty (not sure how often the lower level promotions come) would get you 1,595.70 a month. I'm pulling that off of public websites, you can search US military pay grades. Again the military is your mom and dad, you have free housing, I know in the AF it is normally a dorm like setting, free meals at the mess and health insurance. My friends in the AF at least have said the dorms are comfortable and adequate and I've been fortunate enough to have the experience to live sleep and eat on (army) bases in the past and the food is not bad in my experience. It is mostly cafateria style, but I've found it to be better than your typical cafateria and there is plenty of it. I hear it differs from service to service, such as a navy controller at sea will likely be bunking with several others and opposed to having their own dorm in the AF.

On the flip side the FAA is more of a crap shoot. I have two friends who graduated CTI 6 months ago, one assigned to Vero Beach and one to Reagan. The one at Vero Beach would get $37,200 after getting his CPC and max out at $50,500 not including locality pay and such. The military route is much more financially attractive than that. Lockheed was offering him 10 grand more to start at an FSS than the max out at Vero Beach so he told the FAA no thanks unless they make a better offer, though amazingly the FAA rep put him back on the hire list. The friend offered Reagan meanwhile will make nearly double as a CPC as the other guy and max in the mid 80's range making that offer more financially attractive than the military.

6 years in the military won't get you a pension. Not sure about Champus (military health insurance) but I'd highly doubt it other than injuries sustained while on active duty that require ongoing care. It will get you PX / BX and Commisary bennies though which is a great way to get cheap groceries, booze and smokes if you happen to pass through a base.

[CampbellsChunkySoupra]

-does anyone have experience with the NAVY and ATC?

-are the pay scales the same accross the board?

-for mere curiousity, the air national guard has the "weekend/month" and "2 weeks/year" deal going, do they require ATC's for that?

-so lets say i make it through the 6 years or however long i decided to stay in the service, having the military experience is going to get me a better chance at landing a better FAA job? or is it gonna bump the pay that ill get from the FAA? ill have a better chance at getting a contracted tower job?

-if u live off base, do they pay for ALL of your housing?

-how long must u be in the service to obtain all of the retirement benefits? or some of them?

sorry for all of the questions, im sure i could just call a recruiter. i dont want to listen through the ######## "be all u can be" i want the facts and the truth. thanks guys!

-Tyler

[icephalt24]

Originally Posted by CampbellsChunkySoupra

-does anyone have experience with the NAVY and ATC?

-are the pay scales the same accross the board?
Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard all use the same pay scale.
-for mere curiousity, the air national guard has the "weekend/month" and "2 weeks/year" deal going, do they require ATC's for that?
Yup
-so lets say i make it through the 6 years or however long i decided to stay in the service, having the military experience is going to get me a better chance at landing a better FAA job? or is it gonna bump the pay that ill get from the FAA? ill have a better chance at getting a contracted tower job?
Doesn't matter if you are OTS, former military or CTI, the pay to start from the FAA is the same and the FAA will put you where they're going to put you. You can narrow the places they put you down to one state, but beyond that it is solely up to the FAA. Any military controller going through one enlistment cycle should be able to get on at pretty much any contract tower. The highest hiring minimums I've seen are that you have your CTO and have 3 years experience, which I would have to imagine a military controller would have.
-if u live off base, do they pay for ALL of your housing?
No. They give you a tax free Basic Allowance Housing. How much they give depends on your rank, if you have dependents and where you are.
-how long must u be in the service to obtain all of the retirement benefits? or some of them?
20 years I'm pretty sure.
sorry for all of the questions, im sure i could just call a recruiter. i dont want to listen through the ######## "be all u can be" i want the facts and the truth. thanks guys!

-Tyler

[rickyrhodesii]

-does anyone have experience with the NAVY and ATC?
I'm sure JimmyK and Icephalt are better qualified to answer this one.

-are the pay scales the same accross the board?
Yup. Air Force, Navy, Marines, Army...all get paid the same base pay. An E3 makes the same in each branch.

-for mere curiousity, the air national guard has the "weekend/month" and "2 weeks/year" deal going, do they require ATC's for that?
When i was deployed to Iraq, I had a couple of Guard guys replacing me. We didn't have a whole lot of time to chat, but from the sounds of it they were weekend warriors. A few of them had ATC jobs and the others just did it on the weekends. They were from Hawaii.

-so lets say i make it through the 6 years or however long i decided to stay in the service, having the military experience is going to get me a better chance at landing a better FAA job? or is it gonna bump the pay that ill get from the FAA? ill have a better chance at getting a contracted tower job?
During the FAAs current manning crisis, i don't think military experience is going to help any more than not having experience. The FAA is kinda like the regionals right now...they're just looking for someone with a pulse.

Someone else might be able to vary this: It's rumored that prior military folks are being offered a $20k bonus for a 2-year agreement with the FAA.

Contract towers are looking for someone with a CTO. The military can get you a CTO.

-if u live off base, do they pay for ALL of your housing?
You receive a set allowance each month for housing called BAH. The BAH differs depending on where you live and your rank. I received $800 in Columbus, MS, but when I lived in San Antonio I was raking in over $1200.

So, you can choose an apartment or house that maxes out your BAH or you can find something a little cheaper and pocket the extra cash. You are also responsible for bills...electricity, gas, water, etc. when living off base.

You can check out this link for exact amount for each zip code.

-how long must u be in the service to obtain all of the retirement benefits? or some of them?
You must serve 20 years. There are a few other ways to get retirement bennies early such as medical retirement and being asked to retire early (16+ years). The later two are a little more difficult to come by and pain in the rear to qualify for.


sorry for all of the questions, im sure i could just call a recruiter. i dont want to listen through the ######## "be all u can be" i want the facts and the truth. thanks guys!
Hey, we've all been there! Sadly, the recruiter doesn't really care about you or the career choice you're about to make. He's just trying to make his quota.

We don't mind the questions! That's what we're here for.

[aeronaut]

I just wanna say I appreciate everyone who are answering his questions...because they're not just HIS questions...they're questions I've always had for a long time as well.

I also wish there was a similar Q&A thread about what life is like for a military pilot.

[CampbellsChunkySoupra]

-Can someone explain sign-on bonuses to me?

-What happens after i get my certification and everything needed to become an ATC; can i have the military pay for any other further education of my choice or do they only pay for degrees that coincide with your military job? [GI BILL?]

-If you get called up for service are they strictly 4 month serving times across the board for ATC's? [navy, AF, ANG, etc.]
?
-If i become an ATC in the military, am i qualified for any other civilian jobs in aviation with said training?

-Is the training in the military similar to that of a CTI school?

-How long is boot camp and where is it at? Do any of the branches have more difficult boot camps then the other?

-What ASVAB score is required to become an ATC in the military? Does it vary by branch?

-Which of the military branches would u recommend for ATC and why?

sorry for the barrage of questions again. thanks for taking the time to answer and provide imput. thanks!

-Tyler

[rickyrhodesii]

-Can someone explain sign-on bonuses to me?
The Air Force enlistment bonus is pretty simple. If the AF is offering an enlistment bonus at the time of your enlistment, you'll receive the bonus upon completion of technical training. Six and a half years ago it was $6,000. Thanks to my enlistment bonus, I wasn't really out any money for my private pilot training.

-What happens after I get my certification and everything needed to become an ATC; can I have the military pay for any other further education of my choice or do they only pay for degrees that coincide with your military job? [GI BILL?]
You can pursue any kind of degree and some professional certifications to some degree. When you're active duty, you don't even have to use the GI Bill. We have something called Tuition Assistance (TA). TA covers 100% of tuition per semester hour, up to a set amount. I'm just 4 classes shy of my degree and I haven't paid a dime out of my own pocket! Well other than books...

The GI Bill can be used to supplement your TA if you go over your yearly amount. OR, you can use your GI Bill like I did. It's paying for 60% of my flight training for my instrument rating and commercial license. Pretty sweet deal for a mere $1,200 dollar investment!

-If you get called up for service are they strictly 4 month serving times across the board for ATC's? [navy, AF, ANG, etc.]?
I'm assuming you’re talking about deployments? If so, it's going to differ from each branch of the service. As of now, AF deployments are 4 months with 6 month deployments on the horizon.

-If I become an ATC in the military, am I qualified for any other civilian jobs in aviation with said training?
I've known a few controller get out and become aircraft dispatchers, flight service station and other airfield management type jobs.

-Is the training in the military similar to that of a CTI school?
I can't really say. AF ATC tech school is Mon-Fri, 8 hours a day filled with classroom lectures and sims, for 16 weeks.

-How long is boot camp and where is it at? Do any of the branches have more difficult boot camps then the other?
AF basic military training (BMT) takes place at Lackland AFB, San AntonioTexas. AF BMT is 7 weeks longs. I'm pretty sure the other branches are a little more difficult and demanding than AF BMT.

And just in case you're wondering...you get paid from day 1 in the military until the day you leave. You're being paid to train!

-What ASVAB score is required to become an ATC in the military? Does it vary by branch?
Please don't quote me on this, but I want to say anything over a 35.

-Which of the military branches would u recommend for ATC and why?
Air Force all the way! My dad was an Army controller and he pushed me on to the AF. Controllers in the AF are just controllers. We're not tasked out for security details or convoy duties. When we deploy, our rifles are locked up in the armory never to be seen from again...

I enjoy the AF traffic. You control everything from VFR pop-ups, aerial refueling flights, bomber, fighters, trainers, airliners and everything in between.

In reality, it's what you want. If you like the idea of being one of the few and proud Marines, go for it. Army, be all you can be. Navy, full speed ahead!

[rickyrhodesii]

Originally Posted by aeronaut

I just wanna say I appreciate everyone who are answering his questions...because they're not just HIS questions...they're questions I've always had for a long time as well.

I also wish there was a similar Q&A thread about what life is like for a military pilot.

That's what jetcareers is all about! Don't ever be afraid to ask questions. We were all in your shoes once on the outside with a ton of questions. We're here to try and help you out.

I'm sure if you'd talk to Doug, he might consider a Military Pilot forum or sub forum.

[CampbellsChunkySoupra]

how do they determine your sign on bonus? is it just based off of the timing and what its at?

a buddy of mine who is now a "weekend warrior" [nothing wrong with that] got a $6000 sign-on bonus and got $1500 up front and the rest in installments over the next 5 years. if i got active duty AF, would i get a much bigger one? how does that work out exactly?

[sorry, i want to build my toyota supra and i wanna know what my budget is going to be ] /joke..

[Hacker15e]

Originally Posted by aeronaut

I also wish there was a similar Q&A thread about what life is like for a military pilot.

May I suggest www.airforceots.com or the forums at www.baseops.net, which are two sites that have numerous replies to precisely that question (from the USAF aspect, at least).

There IS a military sub-forum here, by the way!

[CampbellsChunkySoupra]

-when is the best time to sign the "dotted line?"

-how many ATC's does each branch take?

[JimmyK]

-when is the best time to sign the "dotted line?"
Whenever YOU feel you are ready not when a recruiter tells you its the best time.

-how many ATC's does each branch take?
I can only speak for the Marine Corps, which is not many.

[CampbellsChunkySoupra]

i hope im not rushing into all of this. i am calling the AF tomorrow.

so are there any ANG ATC's out there that can chime in on the ANG approach?

[CampbellsChunkySoupra]

will heading to the recruiting station here in des moines tomorrow. cant wait to figure some things out. wish me luck!

any advice on choosing the USAF over the ANG and/or vise versa? and for what reasons.

[CampbellsChunkySoupra]

aww pooooey... no more replies..

check this thread for another update of what happened at the recruiter today!

http://forums.jetcareers.com/militar...tml#post649940