Runway incursions

[CirrusMonkey]

Greetings ye voices in my headset,
I am a new CFI with a few low (10 hours) hour students. I have noticed that every one of them get confused with "hold short" and "possition and hold". Obviously, this can be very dangerous when they solo. I know that over time, like myself, they will understand (it is my job to make sure they do understand before they solo). I was wondering if this has ever come up as something that may possibly be changed in the future? Thanks

[surreal1221]

Well, to be honest...

Draw it on the whiteboard.

Show them what position and hold looks like (you're positioned on the runway, and holding before your takeoff clrnc).

Show them what hold short looks like. Which, they should already know about.

[Murdoughnut]

That seems strange since the two are pretty intuitive. Not like those damn textual weather reports.

[aeroman2]

yep i agree Murdoughnut, just sit there and draw it out and give the students scenarious (sp?)

[SoCalAprch]

I don't know why but at the airport I instruct at the ATIS always says something to the effect of Position and Hold instructions are no longer in effect. It is a busy training airport (KSEE Gillespie in San Diego) with lots of foriegn students. So I figure this might be why we cant get the position and hold instructions.

[eagledriver101]

Originally Posted by CirrusMonkey

Greetings ye voices in my headset,
I am a new CFI with a few low (10 hours) hour students. I have noticed that every one of them get confused with "hold short" and "possition and hold". Obviously, this can be very dangerous when they solo. I know that over time, like myself, they will understand (it is my job to make sure they do understand before they solo). I was wondering if this has ever come up as something that may possibly be changed in the future? Thanks

To make sure I understand, “Taxi to potion and hold” vs. “Taxi to 34L and hold short” There is some confusion with these clearances? Put it on a white board would be the best way to clarify.

One of my old CFI’s instructed his students to mention to ATC that they were student pilots, this way ATC may be a little clearer and give more intuitive direction. What was really cool before 9/11 I used to be able to go up in the tower and talk to ATC and ask questions it was an awesome experience. This was at OGD so it wasn’t too busy there, they would explain the clearances to me; maybe try to arrange with one of the ATC’s for a Q and A with your students. One thing an ATC guy drove into my head as a student was that ATC is there for pilots, and they rather have you say “I don’t understand your instructions, what do you want me to do” than be too intimidated not to ask for some directions, which could result in killing someone.

[SpiraMirabilis]

Ask the tower to give you position and hold instructions if at your airport is not a very common instruction. The only way they'll for sure understand the difference is by doing both.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

Ask the tower to give you position and hold instructions if at your airport is not a very common instruction.

Chances are they can't give that instruction. There are not all that many that can give the old "line up and wait" any more due to the new reg by the feds.

[SpiraMirabilis]

Ah, yes. I forgot about that. In that case I'd ask for a delay on the runway and then give the position and hold instruction and following clearance to take off to your student yourself and "pretend." IE: ATC: Cleared for takeoff, delay on runway approved. You, to Student: Cessna 1234 Position and hold... yadda yadda.. Cessna 1234 cleared for takeoff right turn 160.

...Maybe?