Controller Questioning A Pilot's Technique . . .

[mtsu_av8er]

Curious . . . at what point is it appropriate for a local controller to cancel a landing clearance, because the pilot was waiting too long to lower the gear?

[mikecweb]

When the sparks fly.

[Minuteman]

ZTL Training Department

• Once cleared to land, cancel landing clearance only if unsafe ground conditions exist (runway incursion, etc.).
  
• Do not cancel landing clearance because you think the pilot is too far off the localizer of too high or low -- the pilot is in charge of that decision. ATC cannot instruct a pilot to call a "missed approach" -- that's a call only the pilot can make.

FAA Order 7110.65R

I appreciate the controller's desire to not have his runway closed down because of debris, and, maybe s/he had the Comair Lexington accident in mind where the question was asked several times about why the controller didn't do more.

As far as cancelling a landing clearance:

3. Once the alert is issued, it is solely the pilot's prerogative to determine what course of action, if any, will be taken.

Maybe the controller felt they were helping the pilot decide his course of action.

[Velocipede]

This thread reminds me of the old story about a late descent clearance:

Controller: "Cross ZZZ at 10,000."
Pilot: "We're too high to comply with that restriction."
Controller: "Don't you have speedbrakes on that thing?"
Pilot: "Those are for my mistakes, not yours."

[surreal1221]

Uh - Minuteman, you do realize that ZTL Training Department

Is not an OFFICIAL FAA authorized source for information, but rather a VATSIM (Fly Online with VATSIM.net - Virtual Air Traffic Simulation Network providing simulated air traffic control and online flying) mock ARTCC facility?

[Minuteman]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Uh - Minuteman, you do realize that ZTL Training Department

Is not an OFFICIAL FAA authorized source for information, but rather a VATSIM (Fly Online with VATSIM.net - Virtual Air Traffic Simulation Network providing simulated air traffic control and online flying) mock ARTCC facility?

HAH! Well, don't I suck? I didn't realize it was a VATSIM thing. I was just getting used to this whole information-at-my-fingertips thing and nobody told me I had to fact check.

Thought I was referring to something legit, like National Air Traffic Controllers Association Local ZTL. NATCA from the local TRACON used to have an airspace familiarization page and an FAQ. It was nice, but they took it down a while back.

[icephalt24]

There is nothing in the 7110.65 that says the controller can or can't cancel a landing clearance if your gear isn't down. Controllers are supposed to notice and tell you "it appears" and then whatever the problem is, you gear is up, door open etc. The entire provision pertains for the proper way to provide a verbal warning. However, since there is nothing that says they can or can't cancel a landing clearance, 1-1-1 in the 7110.65 becomes the appropriate section. "Controllers are required to be familiar with the provisions of this order that pertain to their operational responsibilities and to excercise their best judgement if they encounter situations that are not covered by it."

[BajtheJino]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Curious . . . at what point is it appropriate for a local controller to cancel a landing clearance, because the pilot was waiting too long to lower the gear?

You like to wait to the last moment dont you and someone called you on it?

[pilotnate23]

The very reason I like the Air Force wheels down check.

[Cessnaflyer]

Originally Posted by pilotnate23

The very reason I like the Air Force wheels down check.

"Turning base gear down and locked" I hear that every few minutes here in MWH with the C-17's

[BobDDuck]

Going into MGM one afternoon I called up tower "Bluestreak XXX right base gear down". There was a pause and then tower came back with "roger Bluestreak XXX cleared to land. Would you like the approach end cable up for your tail hook?"

[rickyrhodesii]

It's always great when you're working UH-1's. You give 'em the "check wheels down" line and they always come back with something interesting. like "Down and welded."

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

You like to wait to the last moment dont you and someone called you on it?

You're just pissed you can't move your gear

[BajtheJino]

Only on the weekends.

[fish314]

Originally Posted by pilotnate23

The very reason I like the Air Force wheels down check.

Since it was mentioned, the LATEST point that Air Force guys are required to call gear down is "prior to crossing the runway threshold." But MOST will do it at the FAF (instruments), or on the Base turn (VFR), as most are taught to have the gear down prior to the "perch".

[pilotnate23]

Originally Posted by Cessnaflyer

"Turning base gear down and locked" I hear that every few minutes here in MWH with the C-17's

My personal favorite is the "base, gear, stop/option" line.

[icephalt24]

Just wondering, were you flying into MQY when it happened?

[mtsu_av8er]

Well, here's the story.

I was going into KMEM the other morning, and I just happened to be in a 210 that day (had to swap an aircraft with another pilot). I am EXTREMELY comfortable in that airplane. While on with Approach, the controller asked me if I could maintain 160 KIAS to the runway, and I replied that I could give him 160 until a VERY short final, and then slow down - maybe land a little long, but that it would be no problem. So, he sequenced me in on the visual, and turned a CRJ in behind me from the downwind.

The final controller cleared me for the approach, and again asked me to maintain max forward speed if possible. No problem . . . nothing unsafe about it. With a VLO of 165, VFE of 160 for 10 degrees, 130 for 20 degrees and 115 for 30 degrees . . . piece of cake.

So, on with the tower, cleared to land, and just coming up on about a mile final, i pull the power out, gear down, and flaps 10. Just as soon as I lowered the handle, the tower controller says, "FLX305, cancel approach and landing clearance - um, cleared to land [obviously seeing that my gear was coming down]. I continued slowing, but arrested the descent, preparing for a go-around, and replied with "FLX305, confirming cleared to land?". She replied, "FLX 305, you are cleared to land".

So, I landed, made the same turn-off that I always do, and she started to explain that she noticed that my gear wasn't down, and was going to have me go around. She followed it up with the always-dreaded "I need you to call the tower supervisor . . . . advise when ready to copy".

So, after I shut down, I gave the tower supervisor a call. He started by saying that I wasn't being violated (good thing - I didn't do anything), and advised me that I had created a "moment of anxiety", and that they don;t like to see pilots that close to the runway with the gear up. He then proceeded to tell me the correct way to fly the airplane, and that I should configure the airplane a lot earlier. I thanked him for his advise, and told him that the only time that safety was compromised was when the tower controller canceled my approach and landing clearance and cleared me to land, all in the same sentence. He didn't really respond to that, and I'm sure that he didn't like it.

And, that was that!

On a side note, the next morning, myself and the other FLX pilot heading into KMEM that morning made an effort to ensure that we were slowed to 120 KIAS, flaps and gear down, and stabilized 40 miles out.

We configured the airplanes a lot earlier.

[Stone Cold]

Gotta love MEM.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Stone Cold

Gotta love MEM.

It's the jewel of the south -well, except for Jackson, MS . . .

[Nick]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

I thanked him for his advise, and told him that the only time that safety was compromised was when the tower controller canceled my approach and landing clearance and cleared me to land, all in the same sentence. He didn't really respond to that, and I'm sure that he didn't like it.

LOL. I love it.

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

On a side note, the next morning, myself and the other FLX pilot heading into KMEM that morning made an effort to ensure that we were slowed to 120 KIAS, flaps and gear down, and stabilized 40 miles out.

We configured the airplanes a lot earlier.

"Be careful what you wish for; you just might get it."

[BobDDuck]

I dunno. I've only been into JAN twice now, but it seemed sort of dead both times. Not to mention, the overnight we have there is officially in the middle of nowhere. The cab driver told us "it's fine to walk that way (points south) but DON'T even think about walking that way (points north)".

[rickyrhodesii]

Geez, no love from the tower watch sup. You think he'd some what be happy you kept your speed up to accommodate the RJ behind you. I know I always thank the pilot when they help me out like you did.

Usually the approach controller will tell the tower, "Hey FLXxxx is maintaining max forward speed on final," or something to that effect.

[ozziecat35]

Originally Posted by pilotnate23

The very reason I like the Air Force wheels down check.

Most definitely, reminds me of my flight training at the Aero Club at Osan AFB in S. Korea. Tower would give me that same clearance...."Cessna 94 Echo Romeo, winds 240 at 6, runway 27, number 1 cleared to land, check gear down."

My CFI and I always enjoyed hearing that in our super cool 1983 172....lol

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Well, here's the story.

I was going into KMEM the other morning, and I just happened to be in a 210 that day (had to swap an aircraft with another pilot). I am EXTREMELY comfortable in that airplane. While on with Approach, the controller asked me if I could maintain 160 KIAS to the runway, and I replied that I could give him 160 until a VERY short final, and then slow down - maybe land a little long, but that it would be no problem. So, he sequenced me in on the visual, and turned a CRJ in behind me from the downwind.

The final controller cleared me for the approach, and again asked me to maintain max forward speed if possible. No problem . . . nothing unsafe about it. With a VLO of 165, VFE of 160 for 10 degrees, 130 for 20 degrees and 115 for 30 degrees . . . piece of cake.

So, on with the tower, cleared to land, and just coming up on about a mile final, i pull the power out, gear down, and flaps 10. Just as soon as I lowered the handle, the tower controller says, "FLX305, cancel approach and landing clearance - um, cleared to land [obviously seeing that my gear was coming down]. I continued slowing, but arrested the descent, preparing for a go-around, and replied with "FLX305, confirming cleared to land?". She replied, "FLX 305, you are cleared to land".

So, I landed, made the same turn-off that I always do, and she started to explain that she noticed that my gear wasn't down, and was going to have me go around. She followed it up with the always-dreaded "I need you to call the tower supervisor . . . . advise when ready to copy".

So, after I shut down, I gave the tower supervisor a call. He started by saying that I wasn't being violated (good thing - I didn't do anything), and advised me that I had created a "moment of anxiety", and that they don;t like to see pilots that close to the runway with the gear up. He then proceeded to tell me the correct way to fly the airplane, and that I should configure the airplane a lot earlier. I thanked him for his advise, and told him that the only time that safety was compromised was when the tower controller canceled my approach and landing clearance and cleared me to land, all in the same sentence. He didn't really respond to that, and I'm sure that he didn't like it.

And, that was that!

On a side note, the next morning, myself and the other FLX pilot heading into KMEM that morning made an effort to ensure that we were slowed to 120 KIAS, flaps and gear down, and stabilized 40 miles out.

We configured the airplanes a lot earlier.

Well Lloyd, I have to commend you on your restraint. That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. I would've had a hard time not telling him what was up. What a dork.