Departure Priority

[Pilot84]

Just a quick question for the controllers out there. How is departure priority determined while several aircraft are in line for takeoff. I often see airplanes from the back of the line sometime backtaxi on the active and takeoff right in front of the next in line airplane.

Thanks

[mtsu_av8er]

Yeah, and where do I sign up to get a "flow time"? Do I have to pre-register, or something?

[surreal1221]

Some guys may be heading to an airport with a ground stop, or a an upstream controlling facility has a flow program in progress that restricts the number of aircraft inbound to a certain airport.

Lot's of things though. All depends. 10 aircraft in line, the three at the end of the line do not have any ground stops, or enroute delays for their destination . . . so they are able to back taxi and take off, leaving 7 aircraft in line. The front 3 each are waiting for a "wheels-up" time, from an upstream controlling facility that has either a ground stop, or enroute / terminal flow restrictions. The other 4 aircraft are eventually launched as they are heading to airports with no restrictions, leaving the original front 3 aircraft waiting for their wheels up time to launch.

[flyhigh]

dont they usually sequence depending on first waypoint?

[surreal1221]

Not really.

Most, actually, ALL Class B and C fields have departure gate (areas) that aircraft are launched toward (either via a SID, or radar vectors towards the initial departure fix).

Outside of 121 operators, other traffic is sequenced on a first come first served basis, and upstream flow restrictions from any upstream traffic management or the ATC Command Center.

[flyhigh]

is the sequence of departures based on anything? (lets say the whole world has clear skies and traffic load is normal)

[surreal1221]

No, not really. Not in a perfect environment, it is a first come first served basis. Minus any issues with in trail departure seperation, or special circumstances (VIP /Lifeguard flights).

[jtrain609]

If you're in a freighter you'll get held for 5 Southwest jets launching in front of you while the tower says something about center saying there is traffic of of Van Nuys.

[Pilot84]

Darn southwest, they think they rule the world.

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

If you're in a freighter you'll get held for 5 Southwest jets launching in front of you while the tower says something about center saying there is traffic of of Van Nuys.

It's not just you freight guys--we hold all the time while Southwest behind us gets the intersection takeoff. It's freaking bizarre--it will sometimes happen with perfect weather and no flow times to anywhere. I've heard the rumots that SW will regularly send pizzas to control towers, but I don't know if that can account for all the good treatment they get.

[Fox Xray]

The info posted above is accurate... there is no priority, it is basically first come first serve. Out of your busy airports there are often MIT (Mile In Trail) restrictions over departure fixes. If the tracon has to give 15 or 20 MIT over a specific fix A/C departing over that fix will sit and wait while others depart. That is to build the necessary in trail.

Part of why SWA gets out is they fly to out of the way airports... such as the NY metro area, SWA flies into ISP. Say 5 A/C are departing MCO for New York... 4 going to LGA/JFK and SWA landing ISP. There might be a 20 MIT restriction for A/C landing the NY metros, but ISP is excluded. That means SWA gets right out. Follow ?

[jtrain609]

Oh it makes sense, it's just frustrating to be held for flow when you're departing VFR in a Beech 99 and you see a few Southwest jets go out in front of you. I mean, how the heck can there be flow when you're VFR?

I've also realized that since I fly a freighter that ATC, by and large, doesn't care about me. Slam dunked onto an approach? Why not! Being held for over 20 minutes at the hold short line while guys carrying passangers go in front of you? All the time. Hack job vectors that puts me 1,500' above the FAF while only being a mile away from it? Seen that one too.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

it's just frustrating to be held for flow when you're departing VFR in a Beech 99 and you see a few Southwest jets go out in front of you.

I hear you. I do not believe in "first come first serve." That's what everyone says, but not what I observe. I have been #1 holding short at SLC with no one else around and held while the ENTIRE PUSH comes off the terminal and departs. After the last airliner leaves we (and the rest of the corp planes) are allowed to takeoff.

Or...A Citation X and a CRJ both going from LEX to CLT, both number 1 for takeoff from opposite sides of the runway. Which plane do you launch first, the Pinto or the Ferrari? You guessed it. The Pinto (CRJ), goes first while we are speed restricted the entire way and then vectored 40 miles past CLT to let a few more CRJs get in front of us. It turned a :30 min flight into 1:00+.

Or...Climb/speed limited behind a plane climbing at 500fpm (an slow to boot) when we need to get to altitude to make max range projections. We plan (try to plan) on at least reaching FL410 in the first :30

I could rattle off stories like this all day. The point is, if you don't have a name stenciled on your plane, you go last. Typically we are asked to decrease cruise speed 15% to "get in trail." Would ARTCC ever think of asking a DAL 757 at FL410 to slow 15% to .64 - .68M to get in trail???

[FlyChicaga]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

Would ARTCC ever think of asking a DAL 757 at FL410 to slow 15% to .64 - .68M to get in trail???

Only if they were going to Newark or O'Hare.

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

If you're in a freighter you'll get held for 5 Southwest jets launching in front of you while the tower says something about center saying there is traffic of of Van Nuys.

I have heard of this before. Nothing against SWA, but I think your boxes should be offended. After all, as a travel agent, all of my client's travel documents arrive via FedEx and UPS, and if they ain't got their tickets, they ain't getting on the passenger planes.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

I hear you. I do not believe in "first come first serve." That's what everyone says, but not what I observe. I have been #1 holding short at SLC with no one else around and held while the ENTIRE PUSH comes off the terminal and departs. After the last airliner leaves we (and the rest of the corp planes) are allowed to takeoff.

That hurts to read, and I can feel similar pain.

I depart Memphis everyday at about 1550, right in time for the start of the afternoon FEDEX push. It really grinds my gears when I have to wait on the ramp - THE RAMP to let 5 or 6 DC-10's taxi FROM the FEDEX ramp to get in front of me. Now, I may only be a little Baron, but I assure you that I'm not going to be in anybody's way at 3000, if they'd just let me go! I've offered to accept a 30 knot crosswind, 15 knot tailwind, depart VFR . . . ANYTHING - just don't make me wait in line between number 9 and 11 for takeoff!!!

[Baronman]

I'm just guessing that corporate aircraft are not dealing with EDCT and flow like many airliners are. Being EWR based after about 11am all bets are off as far as departure time goes....

Usually it goes something like...We get to the gate, shutdown the engines, and I proceed to call clearance to get our time to go to EWR, meanwhile the gate agent is telling the capt the latest time they have. Usually it's about 1-2 hours, we board the pax up and then wait hoping to get out a little early. In that waiting time they usually update our time about 2x, and then finally we have a time. And yeah, the controllers usually make way for us to get out in that window......Then we get aloft, fly at 250 indicated the last half of the trip (either somewhere over Cleveland (from the west) or Richmond (from the south)) and then we get a couple vectors for more space. Sometimes we hold, sometimes we don't...

So...if we happen to buck the line now and again, don't think like we're getting any favors done!! It's how we roll in the sEWR.

[C650CPT]

Hey ... I fly under the call sign PAT ... as in Priority Air Traffic ... and I get NO preferential treatment ... I've been told as I was holding for a departing push that I was considered NON REVENUE Generating and thus the reason for being held to the end of the line. I'm not saying my stuff don't stink but come on first come first serve ... not from my perspective.

Jim

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by Baronman

I'm just guessing that corporate aircraft are not dealing with EDCT and flow like many airliners are.

Why yes, as a matter of fact we do.

ATC just needs a different play book for different and unrelated flight profiles. Airlines are in the "Time-doesn't matter, I'm paid by the hour, need to fly slow to save gas group." Business aircraft are in the "I bought this plane to save time, don't care how much gas, every minute counts group." Believe me, I have seen people get mad because their .91 Citation X was replaced with a .87 GIV. Yes, the :30 minutes was THAT important. Who knows, maybe that "client" is the key vote to passing the ATC funding bill.

The government doesn't make manufacturers certify airplanes to fly the same speed, at the same altitude, in a straight line at the same time. So why are we forced to fly them that way? We already have a mode of transportation that works like that, a train. It's not much of a race when the pace car leads all 500 laps.

C650CPT:
I believe the "Non revenue" remark, I have heard that myself. What they don't realize is the revenue that is generated by a corp jet can FAR exceed what is generated by an airliner. And anyone who doesn't believe that corp aircraft are paying their share is extremely naive. Maybe we should pass along a Signature Flight Support receipt to an AP reporter. $500 bucks for parking :15 minutes on a quick turn. No gas and no FBO resources used other than two doors. We pay fuel prices double the airlines, property tax, hangar rent, ramp fees, landing fees, flowage fees and the list goes on and on. Heck, a lot of the money GA provides is used to subsidize airlines, not to mention the tax breaks the airlines receive by the individual cities. Wanna save more money? Stop subsidizing the airlines. No-one should be asked to pay MORE while another segment is getting things for free.

And to the gentleman who stated (AP report) he "pays more to park at the terminal than to park a corp jet" ........I don't think he has ever paid $600/night to park his vehicle. I have.

[flyhigh]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

Maybe we should pass along a Signature Flight Support receipt to an AP reporter. $500 bucks for parking :15 minutes on a quick turn. No gas and no FBO resources used other than two doors.

gotta love Signature though...especially when they park a bus next to your aircraft and drive you 100 feet to the terminal

[Toria]

Yea, I had to wait today for a naughty Continental 73 to go ahead of me!

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by Toria

Yea, I had to wait today for a naughty Continental 73 to go ahead of me!

I bet I know who was driving that CO 73 in front of you!

[Toria]

Originally Posted by SkyCougar

I bet I know who was driving that CO 73 in front of you!

Yep. That is what made him so naughty!

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

I hear you. I do not believe in "first come first serve." That's what everyone says, but not what I observe. I have been #1 holding short at SLC with no one else around and held while the ENTIRE PUSH comes off the terminal and departs. After the last airliner leaves we (and the rest of the corp planes) are allowed to takeoff.

Or...A Citation X and a CRJ both going from LEX to CLT, both number 1 for takeoff from opposite sides of the runway. Which plane do you launch first, the Pinto or the Ferrari? You guessed it. The Pinto (CRJ), goes first while we are speed restricted the entire way and then vectored 40 miles past CLT to let a few more CRJs get in front of us. It turned a :30 min flight into 1:00+.

Or...Climb/speed limited behind a plane climbing at 500fpm (an slow to boot) when we need to get to altitude to make max range projections. We plan (try to plan) on at least reaching FL410 in the first :30

I could rattle off stories like this all day. The point is, if you don't have a name stenciled on your plane, you go last. Typically we are asked to decrease cruise speed 15% to "get in trail." Would ARTCC ever think of asking a DAL 757 at FL410 to slow 15% to .64 - .68M to get in trail???

Ditto. It's really frustrating at times, especially when can climb an average of 2500 to 3000+ FPM all the way up to altitude (usually 430 or 450) and get step climbed because we're in trail or converging with an airplane climbing at 500-1500 FPM. Speed can be frustrating as well. Since we are always utilizing the max range of our airplane, early descents are a real pain as well. Every time we arrive into Orange County from the east via the KAYOH4.PSP we are asked to descend like 300 miles out. That sucks. Most of the time when we request to stay high as long as possible, they give it to us, it's those times they don't that can cause problems. ATC service is definitely deteriorating as time goes by. It's seems like they just don't care or don't try to help us be as efficient as possible.

We were departing SNA the other day. We wanted to try and get out as close to 0700 as possible. Knowing there would be a line-up, we taxiied out at 0635 to get a good spot in line with the airliners. The controller informed us we would be number seven for departure. Great! We'll take it. Well at about 0720 we departed about number 20 behind a ton of airliners that hadn't even pushed, let alone called for taxi when we got to the runway. It was totally pointless for us to even try. We should've just taxiied out at 0715, the result would've been the same. Oh well.....

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by Toria

Yep. That is what made him so naughty!