XTOPP?

[Tiger815]

Can anyone help me with the waypoints (lat/longs) that define this North Atlantic Track?

I'm working on a presentation slide for work and need to show an Atlantic crossing via this track. Google didn't help. I need a source for derinitive information and net searches were sparse except for simulation stuff. I need to be sure I'm using the real data if it's available.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

I got some stuff on the PC at home...but the internet is down there. Lemme do a lil searchin and I'll get back to ya.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Ok, here's what I've got.

First, download this little program http://ourworld.cs.com/bobraemer/ownnav/natplot.zip
and unzip to a new folder on your desktop

Then, go here:
https://www.notams.jcs.mil/common/nat.html
and save this page (as an HTML file) to your desktop.


Run the .exe file in the new folder and go to File -> Read Nat/Pacots Tracks, find the html file that you just saved and presto, you have a diagram of the current NATs.

If that program doesn't give you exactly what you're looking for, check this out http://blackswan.ch/nat/

[SteveC]

Don't the tracks change, like on a daily basis or something?

[/ignorant NATS question]

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Yep, they do, but if you download that web page every cycle, you will have the most up to date info.

I know that they change the tracks based on current wind and weather over the ocean. In the summer, with the jet stream further north, the east bound tracks will be up close to Greenland, but in the winter they're further south. If I'm not mistaken, there are representatives from the airlines who's job it is to evaluate the conditions and agree on the daily track coordinates.

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by Tiger815

Can anyone help me with the waypoints (lat/longs) that define this North Atlantic Track?

I'm working on a presentation slide for work and need to show an Atlantic crossing via this track. Google didn't help. I need a source for derinitive information and net searches were sparse except for simulation stuff. I need to be sure I'm using the real data if it's available.

XTOPP ? I have never seen that before ... Tracks across the North Atlantic change every day. Tracks West in the AM start at the beginning of the alphabet, NAT A (Alpha), NAT B (Bravo), etc. Going east in the evening they are at the back of the alphabet, NAT X (Xray) NAT Y (Yankee) etc.

Where did you find this XTOPP ?

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

XTOPP ? I have never seen that before ... Tracks across the North Atlantic change every day. Tracks West in the AM start at the beginning of the alphabet, NAT A (Alpha), NAT B (Bravo), etc. Going east in the evening they are at the back of the alphabet, NAT X (Xray) NAT Y (Yankee) etc.

Where did you find this XTOPP ?

I have no clue what it means, but I found this when I was doing a Google out of curiousity:

FlightAware Heathrow/JFK routes.

[Fox Xray]

It appears to be some form of a coded route system. If there are no tracks A/C usually will file certain routes based on the winds. These may be some form of a pref routing, in this case XTOPP may spell out a certain route across the Atlantic to land fall. I will look into this some more...

[Tiger815]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I have no clue what it means, but I found this when I was doing a Google out of curiousity:

FlightAware Heathrow/JFK routes.

That's were I was looking as well. The flight plan I found is:

XTOPP#ENE#BAF#J77#PTW#J48

From ENE its no problem plotting the course line. The XTOPP part is the nut I'm trying to crack. I like to find both the entry and exit points with some lat/longs that are resonably recent. Failing that at least figuring out the entry and exit points would help.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

My guess would be that the flight was routed along Track X and the US entry point was TOPPS. Maybe it is some sort of coded intersection format so that domestic ATC knows that the flight will be entering US airspace via TOPPS, but they also, for some reason, need to know that it was flying along Track X. Without knowing the track plots for the day of the flight in question, there would be no way to know what fix was the starting point for Track X coming out of Europe.

BUT, isn't Track X an eastbound track?

[surreal1221]

Yes, Track X is eastbound - https://www.notams.jcs.mil/common/nat.html

[Tiger815]

Originally Posted by TFaudree_ERAU

My guess would be that the flight was routed along Track X and the US entry point was TOPPS. Maybe it is some sort of coded intersection format so that domestic ATC knows that the flight will be entering US airspace via TOPPS, but they also, for some reason, need to know that it was flying along Track X. Without knowing the track plots for the day of the flight in question, there would be no way to know what fix was the starting point for Track X coming out of Europe.

BUT, isn't Track X an eastbound track?

Confusing aint it?

The documentation I found on the web says X is east bound and the flight plan I found seems to jive with that.

The link that surreal provided seems like a reliable source and indicates X is west bound.

For the purposes of my presentation I used the info from surreals suggestion and plotted:

ODF J48 PTW J77 BAF ENE COLOR RONPO 47/50 49/40 50/30 50/20 SOMAX KENUK

Thanks for the help guys!

[TFaudree_ERAU]

What are the departure and destination airports of your example flight? I assume it is Hartsfield since Foothills is your first VOR. If thats the case, you can simply go to FlightAware's IFR Routes resource page and plug in the US departure and international destination and reference the route. The NAT is in there as NATx, x being the track designator. If it is a European departure coming into the US, I would suggest routing it through the TOPPS intersection or one of the ones listed below. If you look at the link that SteveC posted, all of those fixes start with X and then have 4 letters which correspond to a couple of different fixes that are right on the border of domestic airspace;

XTAFF=TAFFY, XTUSK=TUSKY, XALLE=ALLEX, etc.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Tiger815

The documentation I found on the web says X is east bound and the flight plan I found seems to jive with that.

The link that surreal provided seems like a reliable source and indicates X is west bound.

Not trying to make it more confusing. . . but Track X is Eastbound only. Take another look at the NOTAM JCS website and there are only Eastbound cruise altitudes provided. When no altitudes are provided for a direction it means that it is not available for that direction of flight.

Originally Posted by NAT website

X COLOR RONPO 47/50 49/40 50/30 50/20 SOMAX KENUK
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS EAST NIL
NAR N43A N49A-

Also, if you look even further, the altitudes available for eastbound travel are only 1000ft separation. Leaving no room for any opposite direction traffic (even in an RVSM environment). Hence, no west bound traffic.

Just had to clear it up.

[Tiger815]

Originally Posted by TFaudree_ERAU

What are the departure and destination airports of your example flight? I assume it is Hartsfield since Foothills is your first VOR. If thats the case, you can simply go to FlightAware's IFR Routes resource page and plug in the US departure and international destination and reference the route. The NAT is in there as NATx, x being the track designator. If it is a European departure coming into the US, I would suggest routing it through the TOPPS intersection or one of the ones listed below. If you look at the link that SteveC posted, all of those fixes start with X and then have 4 letters which correspond to a couple of different fixes that are right on the border of domestic airspace;

XTAFF=TAFFY, XTUSK=TUSKY, XALLE=ALLEX, etc.

I didn't see TOPPS on the chart I was using. Ya' got a lat/long or at least a "it's near the tip of something"?

It was supposedly Paris, Orly (ORL) to ATL, but since the X track seems to be eastbound, I'm not sure what's going on. I'll be able to access ATC resources at work tomorrow to get it figured out and will post what I find since there were a few folks interested enought to help me out.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

http://www.airnav.com/airspace/fix/TOPPS

Use the program in that zip file I previously linked you to. TOPPS is up near the northern tip of Maine. You'll find it pretty easily.

[Fox Xray]

I am somewhat familiar with North Atlantic ops and have never seen these codes before. I spoke with someone in airspace and procedures this afternoon and they said these ID's (XTOPP, etc.) have no ATC designation, they are most likely some sort of coding unique to flightware.

Like I posted earlier, the westbound AM tracks are low letters (A,B,C) and the eastbound PM track are high letters (X,Y,Z).

Look at this evenings track message... tracks (T)ango through (Z)ulu are all eastbound with tracks T-Y all being in Canadian airspace... track (Z)ulu starts at fix BALOO which is about 180 miles due east of BDA and is controlled by ZNY oceanic.

Since I am really curious about this I'm going to email flightware and see what they have to say.

[Tiger815]

Originally Posted by TFaudree_ERAU

http://www.airnav.com/airspace/fix/TOPPS

Use the program in that zip file I previously linked you to. TOPPS is up near the northern tip of Maine. You'll find it pretty easily.

OK, I see it on the High Enroute, but it's not on the North Atlantic Route Chart.

X-ray, I'd love to hear what FlightAware has to say.

[Tiger815]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Not trying to make it more confusing. . . but Track X is Eastbound only. Take another look at the NOTAM JCS website and there are only Eastbound cruise altitudes provided. When no altitudes are provided for a direction it means that it is not available for that direction of flight.



Also, if you look even further, the altitudes available for eastbound travel are only 1000ft separation. Leaving no room for any opposite direction traffic (even in an RVSM environment). Hence, no west bound traffic.

Just had to clear it up.

My bad. I had it right in my head just got dislexic in typing that post.

X goes East

A goes West

Now if we can just understand why FlightAware flight plans show west bound flights with things like like "XTOPP" or "XTUSK" as the first part of the routing we'll have it all figured out.

[queeno]

the tracks change every 6 hours, not daily

[seagull]

NAT


Eastbound NAT Tracks (20070330)

301302 CZQXZQZX
(NAT-1/2 TRACKS FLS 320/400 INCLUSIVE
MAR 31/0100Z TO MAR 31/0800Z

PART ONE OF TWO PARTS-

S YQX KOBEV 50/50 52/40 54/30 55/20 RESNO ODLUM
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS EAST NIL
NAR N81B N83B-

T VIXUN LOGSU 49/50 51/40 53/30 54/20 DOGAL BABAN
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS EAST LFPG E367A
NAR N65B N67B-

U YYT NOVEP 48/50 50/40 52/30 53/20 MALOT BURAK
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS EAST LFPG E391A
NAR N55B N59A-

V COLOR RONPO 47/50 49/40 51/30 52/20 LIMRI DOLIP
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS EAST LFPG E427A
NAR N45B N49A-

W BANCS URTAK 46/50 48/40 50/30 51/20 DINIM GIPER
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS EAST NIL
NAR N37B N41C-

X RAFIN VODOR 45/50 47/40 49/30 50/20 SOMAX KENUK
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS EAST NIL
NAR N29B N33C-

END OF PART ONE OF TWO PARTS)
301304 CZQXZQZX
(NAT-2/2 TRACKS FLS 320/400 INCLUSIVE
MAR 31/0100Z TO MAR 31/0800Z

PART TWO OF TWO PARTS-

Y JAROM BOBTU 44/50 46/40 48/30 49/20 BEDRA GUNSO
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS EAST NIL
NAR N21C N25B-

Z DANER 40/60 43/50 45/40 47/30 48/20 48/15 ETIKI REGHI
EAST LVLS 320 330 340 350 370 380 390 400
WEST LVLS NIL
EUR RTS EAST NIL
NAR NIL-

REMARKS:
1.TRACK MESSAGE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER IS 090 AND OPERATORS ARE
REMINDED TO INCLUDE THE TMI NUMBER AS PART OF THE OCEANIC
CLEARANCE READ BACK.
2.CLEARANCE DELIVERY FREQUENCY ASSIGNMENTS FOR AIRCRAFT OPERATING
FROM KENKI TO BOBTU INCLUSIVE:
KENKI TO VIMLA 132.02
MIBNO TO LAKES/KENRI 134.2
MOATT TO SCROD 128.7
OYSTR TO CYMON 135.45
YQX TO VIXUN 135.05
YYT TO COLOR 128.45
BANCS TO BOBTU 119.42
3.GANDER OCEANIC CLEARANCE DELIVERY CREW PROCEDURES AS PER AIC
29/06 OF THE CANADIAN AIP.
4.OCEANIC PROCEDURES IN THE EVENT OF A GANDER ACC EVACUATION ARE
PUBLISHED IN AIP CANADA [ICAO] PART 2 ENR 1.8.
5.GANDER CLEARANCE DELIVERY WILL PROVIDE EASTBOUND OCEANIC
CLEARANCES FOR AIRCRAFT TRANSITTING MONTREAL'S FIR INTO
GANDER OCA. SEE NOTAM A7380/06 OR A7375/06.
6.OPERATORS ARE REQUIRED TO REFER TO NOTAM A7961/06 FOR SPECIFIC
PROCEDURES IN NAT MNPS AIRSPACE.-

END OF PART TWO OF TWO PARTS)

Westbound NAT Tracks (20070330)

302034 EGPXYFYX
(NAT-1/2 TRACKS FLS 310/390 INCLUSIVE
MAR 31/1130Z TO MAR 31/1900Z
PART ONE OF TWO PARTS-
A ERAKA 58/20 58/30 59/40 59/50 PRAWN YDP
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 350 360 370
EUR RTS WEST ETSOM
NAR - N322B N326B N328C N334C N346A N348C N352C N356C N362B N332B
N344B
B SUNOT 57/20 57/30 58/40 58/50 PORGY HO
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST OSBOX
NAR - N284B N292C N294C N302C N304G N306C N308E N312A N296E
C PIKIL 56/20 56/30 56/40 54/50 CARPE REDBY
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST ELPIN
NAR - N204B N206C
D RESNO 55/20 55/30 55/40 53/50 HECKK YAY
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST ODLUM
NAR - N184B N188B
E DOGAL 54/20 54/30 54/40 52/50 CRONO DOTTY
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST BABAN
NAR - N162B N164B
END OF PART ONE OF TWO PARTS)
302034 EGPXYFYX
(NAT-2/2 TRACKS FLS 310/390 INCLUSIVE
MAR 31/1130Z TO MAR 31/1900Z
PART TWO OF TWO PARTS-
F MALOT 53/20 53/30 53/40 51/50 DENDU CYMON
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST BURAK
NAR - N142B N148B
G LIMRI 52/20 52/30 52/40 50/50 KOBEV YQX
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST DOLIP
NAR - N126B N130C
REMARKS.
1. TRACK MESSAGE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER IS 090 AND OPERATORS ARE
REMINDED TO INCLUDE THE TMI NUMBER AS PART OF THE OCEANIC CLEARANCE
READ BACK.
2. FOR STRATEGIC LATERAL OFFSET AND CONTINGENCY PROCEDURES
RELATED TO OPS IN NAT FLOW PLEASE REFER TO THE NAT PROGRAMME
COORDINATION WEB SITE AT WWW.NAT PCO.ORG
3. MNPS AIRSPACE EXTENDS FROM FL285 TO FL420. OPERATORS ARE REMINDED
THAT SPECIFIC MNPS APPROVAL IS REQUIRED TO FLY IN THIS AIRSPACE. IN
ADDITION, RVSM APPROVAL IS REQUIRED TO FLY BETWEEN FL290 AND FL410
INCLUSIVE
4. EIGHTY PERCENT OF GROSS NAV ERRORS RESULT FROM POOR COCKPIT
PROCEDURES. ALWAYS CARRY OUT PROPER WAYPOINT CHECKS-
END OF PART TWO OF TWO PARTS)
302104 EGPXYFYX
(NAT-1/2 TRACKS FLS 310/390 INCLUSIVE
MAR 31/1130Z TO MAR 31/1900Z
PART ONE OF TWO PARTS-
A ERAKA 58/20 58/30 59/40 59/50 PRAWN YDP
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 350 360 370
EUR RTS WEST ETSOM
NAR N322B N326B N328C N334C N346A N348C N352C N356C N362B N332B
N344B-
B SUNOT 57/20 57/30 58/40 58/50 PORGY HO
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST OSBOX
NAR N284B N292C N294C N302C N304G N306C N308E N312A N296E-
C PIKIL 56/20 56/30 56/40 54/50 CARPE REDBY
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST ELPIN
NAR N204B N206C-
D RESNO 55/20 55/30 55/40 53/50 HECKK YAY
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST ODLUM
NAR N184B N188B-
E DOGAL 54/20 54/30 54/40 52/50 CRONO DOTTY
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST BABAN
NAR N162B N164B-
END OF PART ONE OF TWO PARTS)
302105 EGPXYFYX
(NAT-2/2 TRACKS FLS 310/390 INCLUSIVE
MAR 31/1130Z TO MAR 31/1900Z
PART TWO OF TWO PARTS-
F MALOT 53/20 53/30 53/40 51/50 DENDU CYMON
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST BURAK
NAR N142B N148B-
G LIMRI 52/20 52/30 52/40 50/50 KOBEV YQX
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390
EUR RTS WEST DOLIP
NAR N126B N130C-
REMARKS.
1. TRACK MESSAGE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER IS 090 AND OPERATORS ARE
REMINDED TO INCLUDE THE TMI NUMBER AS PART OF THE OCEANIC CLEARANCE
READ BACK.
2. FOR STRATEGIC LATERAL OFFSET AND CONTINGENCY PROCEDURES
RELATED TO OPS IN NAT FLOW PLEASE REFER TO THE NAT PROGRAMME
COORDINATION WEB SITE AT WWW.NAT PCO.ORG
3. MNPS AIRSPACE EXTENDS FROM FL285 TO FL420. OPERATORS ARE REMINDED
THAT SPECIFIC MNPS APPROVAL IS REQUIRED TO FLY IN THIS AIRSPACE. IN
ADDITION, RVSM APPROVAL IS REQUIRED TO FLY BETWEEN FL290 AND FL410
INCLUSIVE
4. EIGHTY PERCENT OF GROSS NAV ERRORS RESULT FROM POOR COCKPIT
PROCEDURES. ALWAYS CARRY OUT PROPER WAYPOINT CHECKS-
END OF PART TWO OF TWO PARTS)

[Orest Skrypuch]

XTOPP (and XTUSK) are not waypoints, or approaches.

Seems that flightaware is using this is to mean "through" TOPPS, dropping the final letter of the waypoint as it likely has five letters fixed for waypoints.

You'll see this on any westbound transatlantic flight listing. Eastbound flights usually list the entire filed route, even the landing STAR.

* Orest

[staplegun]

Originally Posted by queeno

the tracks change every 6 hours, not daily

This is incorrect. The tracks change daily, see the above example of a TRACK message.

Kevin